Will a 997.2 C2S be raw enough?
Discussion
I’ve owned lots of BMWs in the past and am currently driving an M135i, which I find completely anodyne with lots of failings as a driver’s car. I also feel that BMW has been forced down the technology/turbo route and its cars have become a bit dull.
I recently drove a 991 C4s (in full attack mode) and was reminded what an engine without turbo-lag feels like. It was a great experience, but I didn’t get the opportunity to push it hard in the corners so still have no idea what a 911 feels like in terms of understeer/oversteer at its grip-limits.
I’m tied into a PCP deal at the moment on the M135i, but like every true PHer am already planning my next car and have some questions about the 997.2 C2S. I should first mention the problems that I’m having with the M135i to help explain what I hope the 997.2 C2s would provide:
It’s too quiet inside. I’d like more engine and exhaust noise.
When not going quickly, it doesn’t feel special.
At the limit of adhesion it’s a bit understeery and the suspension feels soft.
Lack of LSD can have horrendously grabby results when the brake grabs at the spinning inside wheel to stop it spinning (it does this with all traction systems off).
Turbo-lag is frustrating. I miss a sharp throttle response.
There’s not very much feedback. It feels like all the controls are muted or damped in order to make the car more comfortable on longer journeys.
My question of the 997.2 C2s is really whether it will be exciting enough or if only a GT3 would cut it (which I can’t stretch to). My commute is mostly on fast, empty B-roads so I’m really not fussed about having too much comfort. Although, that said, my wife and son will travel in the car occasionally too so it can’t be a stripped out racer.
I know that I need to spend some time in the 997 to understand what it really feels like, but I hope that people with experience of BMWs and 997s can perhaps offer their experiences.
I recently drove a 991 C4s (in full attack mode) and was reminded what an engine without turbo-lag feels like. It was a great experience, but I didn’t get the opportunity to push it hard in the corners so still have no idea what a 911 feels like in terms of understeer/oversteer at its grip-limits.
I’m tied into a PCP deal at the moment on the M135i, but like every true PHer am already planning my next car and have some questions about the 997.2 C2S. I should first mention the problems that I’m having with the M135i to help explain what I hope the 997.2 C2s would provide:
It’s too quiet inside. I’d like more engine and exhaust noise.
When not going quickly, it doesn’t feel special.
At the limit of adhesion it’s a bit understeery and the suspension feels soft.
Lack of LSD can have horrendously grabby results when the brake grabs at the spinning inside wheel to stop it spinning (it does this with all traction systems off).
Turbo-lag is frustrating. I miss a sharp throttle response.
There’s not very much feedback. It feels like all the controls are muted or damped in order to make the car more comfortable on longer journeys.
My question of the 997.2 C2s is really whether it will be exciting enough or if only a GT3 would cut it (which I can’t stretch to). My commute is mostly on fast, empty B-roads so I’m really not fussed about having too much comfort. Although, that said, my wife and son will travel in the car occasionally too so it can’t be a stripped out racer.
I know that I need to spend some time in the 997 to understand what it really feels like, but I hope that people with experience of BMWs and 997s can perhaps offer their experiences.
Well, a 991 will feel like a limo in comparison to a 997 so i think you'll like it! It feels far more intimate because it transmits more NVH and the steering is far more feelsome than modern set ups.
I would argue a C4S is better still as it incorporate greater front end bite. The 991 gives this with its wider track; a 997 is more old school 911 in that you have to work with the layout of the car. the 4WD and weight over the nose makes the C4S more confidence inspiriting and 'chuckable' in my humble opinion.
Notice you're in Surrey; happy to take you for a spin at the weekend if you are around.
I would argue a C4S is better still as it incorporate greater front end bite. The 991 gives this with its wider track; a 997 is more old school 911 in that you have to work with the layout of the car. the 4WD and weight over the nose makes the C4S more confidence inspiriting and 'chuckable' in my humble opinion.
Notice you're in Surrey; happy to take you for a spin at the weekend if you are around.
Had a 997.2 C2S a few years ago and found it too refined and lacking the character / feeling that my previous 3.2 Carrera had though you couldn't complain about the actual performance which was a completely different league to any of the air cooled models that I've driven (non turbo). Ended up selling the 997 after 12 months and now have a 993 C2 which I much prefer. Guess you need to try ne yourself then decide.
I'm currently having the same thoughts.
I change cars quite frequently, but do have a big burning desire to get into a 997.2s or 4s. I've had my M135 for 15 months and whilst it is a great fun car, is an amazing bang for the buck and extremely practical, it does lack something and it certainly isn't special in my eyes. I did look at a gen 2 c4s before I bought the M135 last Christmas, but due to PCP funding, it was easier to go for either a S3 or the M135 .
After a driving experience day driving a Cayman Gts and a 991 Gts through the driving experience at Porsche, the desire to change has intensified. I've driven a nice 911 Carerra Gen 2 PDK, but felt a little disappointed and underwhelmed. So currently looking for a good c2s or c4s.
Only problems are finding a good one, financing a 911 using a finance balloon is looking expensive and getting out of a M135 on a Pcp is a disaster , particularly if PXing .
Decisions
I change cars quite frequently, but do have a big burning desire to get into a 997.2s or 4s. I've had my M135 for 15 months and whilst it is a great fun car, is an amazing bang for the buck and extremely practical, it does lack something and it certainly isn't special in my eyes. I did look at a gen 2 c4s before I bought the M135 last Christmas, but due to PCP funding, it was easier to go for either a S3 or the M135 .
After a driving experience day driving a Cayman Gts and a 991 Gts through the driving experience at Porsche, the desire to change has intensified. I've driven a nice 911 Carerra Gen 2 PDK, but felt a little disappointed and underwhelmed. So currently looking for a good c2s or c4s.
Only problems are finding a good one, financing a 911 using a finance balloon is looking expensive and getting out of a M135 on a Pcp is a disaster , particularly if PXing .
Decisions
Thank you all for the replies.
Ashley - I'm hoping that the engine noise will dominate the experience. I'd love a bit of engine noise when just keeping a steady speed, the M135i's engine is inaudible unless it's accelerating.
Chris - Sadly, the GT3 is out of the running on price grounds.
LordHaveMurci - I find the M135i's turbo-lag irritating and so the crispness of a good NA engine will feel so much better after the M135i.
hondansx - Interesting, re the thoughts about the 991 feeling limo-like. I much prefer a rawer feel to my cars and so a 997 sounds like it might be a good match for me. I love that you used the term NVH as that's certainly something that I feel is missing from the M135i. On a handling note, I love the odd power-slide here and there and so I assumed that the C2S would be the car for me. What are your experiences as to the difference between how the 2 and the 4 slide? I realise the 4 has a slightly wider rear track and would expect it to be more understeery than the 2.
Sadly, my weekend is already spoken for, but if the offer is still open to meet up at some time in the future, that's something I'd like to experience. Thank you for the kind offer.
monthefish - The car will be used as my daily and nobody in my street will thank me for waking them at 6:15am (except perhaps my son since I'm sure he'll love the sound). I bet it sounds phenomenal though.
Gordo - Interesting thought regarding going for an older model. This had occurred to me, but I worry about fighting rust and resolving other age related issues. The car will live outside since my garage is effectively a workshop, so I think perhaps an older 911 might not fit the bill. I think the wife may not understand the 'classic' concept either.
Darren - I needed the M135i to carry bicycles and such and generally be young family friendly for a few years, which it's doing, but in a very Audi-esque way. I crave more excitement.
Ashley - I'm hoping that the engine noise will dominate the experience. I'd love a bit of engine noise when just keeping a steady speed, the M135i's engine is inaudible unless it's accelerating.
Chris - Sadly, the GT3 is out of the running on price grounds.
LordHaveMurci - I find the M135i's turbo-lag irritating and so the crispness of a good NA engine will feel so much better after the M135i.
hondansx - Interesting, re the thoughts about the 991 feeling limo-like. I much prefer a rawer feel to my cars and so a 997 sounds like it might be a good match for me. I love that you used the term NVH as that's certainly something that I feel is missing from the M135i. On a handling note, I love the odd power-slide here and there and so I assumed that the C2S would be the car for me. What are your experiences as to the difference between how the 2 and the 4 slide? I realise the 4 has a slightly wider rear track and would expect it to be more understeery than the 2.
Sadly, my weekend is already spoken for, but if the offer is still open to meet up at some time in the future, that's something I'd like to experience. Thank you for the kind offer.
monthefish - The car will be used as my daily and nobody in my street will thank me for waking them at 6:15am (except perhaps my son since I'm sure he'll love the sound). I bet it sounds phenomenal though.
Gordo - Interesting thought regarding going for an older model. This had occurred to me, but I worry about fighting rust and resolving other age related issues. The car will live outside since my garage is effectively a workshop, so I think perhaps an older 911 might not fit the bill. I think the wife may not understand the 'classic' concept either.
Darren - I needed the M135i to carry bicycles and such and generally be young family friendly for a few years, which it's doing, but in a very Audi-esque way. I crave more excitement.
bennyboysvuk said:
monthefish - The car will be used as my daily and nobody in my street will thank me for waking them at 6:15am (except perhaps my son since I'm sure he'll love the sound). I bet it sounds phenomenal though.
Yes, sounded great, but not practical for day-to-day I'd imagine.This is probably true of most Porsches, but I believe that if you fit some sports buckets, lower and firm up the ride and get a proper sports exhaust, it will alleviate any concerns/criticisms of a car being too sterile/not raw enough.
I use mine on a daily basis with no issues. If you get the sports exhaust the noise is good when up the rev range, but quiet on startup and low revs. Get PASM as well and then it will feel quiet raw (i.e. choppy) but as speed increases the suspension makes more sense and works well.
As with any car, push too hard into a corner and it will understeer, but the chassis is very controllable via the throttle. Not taken mine up to the limits of handling as I've not taken it to a track, but it is more than capable on the road.
If you go for one, I don't think you'll regret it.
Steve
As with any car, push too hard into a corner and it will understeer, but the chassis is very controllable via the throttle. Not taken mine up to the limits of handling as I've not taken it to a track, but it is more than capable on the road.
If you go for one, I don't think you'll regret it.
Steve
Magic919 said:
Soundwise, a 997.2 with Sharkwerks bypass and PSE is the best compromise. Quiet mode is great for leaving early and just hit the button later on for party mode. It's the third (centre) silencer that stiffles the sound.
Or the Sharkwerks bypass and Carnewal GT silencers if you find a car without PSE already fitted. The Carnewal GT silencers are about 1/3rd the price of a PSE retrofit and sound every bit as good (or more). Volume is totally adjustable with your right foot. The silencers are modified internally and are visually indistinguishable from the standard Porsche silencers - the re-welding really is that good.www.carnewal.be
To the OP
To a degree, the 997S.2 can easily be 'tweaked' into being the car you want it to be (for road use). As standard they're too quiet, but an exhaust will sort that out quickly enough. Thereafter, it's all about how the car feels and handles. With the right setup, they can be made very responsive with crisp initial turn-in and great adjustability through a corner.
My recommendation would be to take the car to Center Gravity for a custom geo setup, designed to get the front to really bite and to loosen the rear slightly. This, will largely negate the understeer Porsche dialled-in to the standard setup and you can really feel the rear of the car getting involved in the proceedings. Next, replacing the Porsche-sanctioned 'N' rated, stone-age tyres (they're all very old designs) with Michelin Pilot Super Sports will increase all-round grip in both wet and dry as well as adding yet another dimension to the front-end turn-in and bite. (The front Super Sport tyre differs from the 'N' rated equivalent a lot more than the rear does).
The result is a car that's a real joy to drive down a twisty ‘B’ road. Fast enough, sounds amazing and (most importantly) with bucket loads of crystal-clear communication about everything the chassis is up to.
If you want to go further, coilovers (such as Bilstein's PSS-10 or B16 Damptronics) give much greater body control - reducing roll & pitch – and allow you to reduce ride heights and set cornerweights. Monoball control arms (such as the RSS items) give more adjustability (particularly camber) and sharper turn-in, whilst adjustable ARBs will give more flexibility in fine-tuning the handling balance.
To a degree, the 997S.2 can easily be 'tweaked' into being the car you want it to be (for road use). As standard they're too quiet, but an exhaust will sort that out quickly enough. Thereafter, it's all about how the car feels and handles. With the right setup, they can be made very responsive with crisp initial turn-in and great adjustability through a corner.
My recommendation would be to take the car to Center Gravity for a custom geo setup, designed to get the front to really bite and to loosen the rear slightly. This, will largely negate the understeer Porsche dialled-in to the standard setup and you can really feel the rear of the car getting involved in the proceedings. Next, replacing the Porsche-sanctioned 'N' rated, stone-age tyres (they're all very old designs) with Michelin Pilot Super Sports will increase all-round grip in both wet and dry as well as adding yet another dimension to the front-end turn-in and bite. (The front Super Sport tyre differs from the 'N' rated equivalent a lot more than the rear does).
The result is a car that's a real joy to drive down a twisty ‘B’ road. Fast enough, sounds amazing and (most importantly) with bucket loads of crystal-clear communication about everything the chassis is up to.
If you want to go further, coilovers (such as Bilstein's PSS-10 or B16 Damptronics) give much greater body control - reducing roll & pitch – and allow you to reduce ride heights and set cornerweights. Monoball control arms (such as the RSS items) give more adjustability (particularly camber) and sharper turn-in, whilst adjustable ARBs will give more flexibility in fine-tuning the handling balance.
Edited by Ian_UK1 on Saturday 14th March 12:34
Ian_UK1 said:
To the OP
To a degree, the 997S.2 can easily be 'tweaked' into being the car you want it to be (for road use). As standard they're too quiet, but an exhaust will sort that out quickly enough. Thereafter, it's all about how the car feels and handles. With the right setup, they can be made very responsive with crisp initial turn-in and great adjustability through a corner.
My recommendation would be to take the car to Center Gravity for a custom geo setup, designed to get the front to really bite and to loosen the rear slightly. This, will largely negate the understeer Porsche dialled-in to the standard setup and you can really feel the rear of the car getting involved in the proceedings. Next, replacing the Porsche-sanctioned 'N' rated, stone-age tyres (they're all very old designs) with Michelin Pilot Super Sports will increase all-round grip in both wet and dry as well as adding yet another dimension to the front-end turn-in and bite. (The front Super Sport tyre differs from the 'N' rated equivalent a lot more than the rear does).
The result is a car that's a real joy to drive down a twisty ‘B’ road. Fast enough, sounds amazing and (most importantly) with bucket loads of crystal-clear communication about everything the chassis is up to.
If you want to go further, coilovers (such as Bilstein's PSS-10 or B16 Damptronics) give much greater body control - reducing roll & pitch – and allow you to reduce ride heights and set cornerweights. Monoball control arms (such as the RSS items) give more adjustability (particularly camber) and sharper turn-in, whilst adjustable ARBs will give more flexibility in fine-tuning the handling balance.
Thanks Ian. I particularly like the sound of crisp turn-in and adjustability through a corner and also bucket loads of crystal clear feedback. That really does sound just like what I'm after.To a degree, the 997S.2 can easily be 'tweaked' into being the car you want it to be (for road use). As standard they're too quiet, but an exhaust will sort that out quickly enough. Thereafter, it's all about how the car feels and handles. With the right setup, they can be made very responsive with crisp initial turn-in and great adjustability through a corner.
My recommendation would be to take the car to Center Gravity for a custom geo setup, designed to get the front to really bite and to loosen the rear slightly. This, will largely negate the understeer Porsche dialled-in to the standard setup and you can really feel the rear of the car getting involved in the proceedings. Next, replacing the Porsche-sanctioned 'N' rated, stone-age tyres (they're all very old designs) with Michelin Pilot Super Sports will increase all-round grip in both wet and dry as well as adding yet another dimension to the front-end turn-in and bite. (The front Super Sport tyre differs from the 'N' rated equivalent a lot more than the rear does).
The result is a car that's a real joy to drive down a twisty ‘B’ road. Fast enough, sounds amazing and (most importantly) with bucket loads of crystal-clear communication about everything the chassis is up to.
If you want to go further, coilovers (such as Bilstein's PSS-10 or B16 Damptronics) give much greater body control - reducing roll & pitch – and allow you to reduce ride heights and set cornerweights. Monoball control arms (such as the RSS items) give more adjustability (particularly camber) and sharper turn-in, whilst adjustable ARBs will give more flexibility in fine-tuning the handling balance.
Edited by Ian_UK1 on Saturday 14th March 12:34
Sorry, late to the conversation but here is my question, what do you mean by "raw"?
Hard suspension does not mean raw to me. For example, I have driven a Z4M at full chat on Welsh and East Anglia country roads and I don't find it raw - I just found it very, very harsh ( as well as only averaging 13 mpg on the road with only a 11 gal tank !).
High NVH being one but very sharp and aggressive controls ( throttle application, clutch bite, bulky gear change, large steering kickback, front axle being bumped off the ground and general nervousness in the way the car goes down the road ) sums up rawness for me.
Having driven loads of 911 (except for the 991) in our driving club, if it is the rawness you are looking for, then a 997 RWD GTS or a 996 with a M030 suspension kit or a GT3 suspension set up will be even more raw than a 997 C2S or a C4S. Or you can go down to 964 or 930 but they are probably too old as a daily now.
I use my 996T manual I chose over a 997 C2 as my daily and can meet up.
Hard suspension does not mean raw to me. For example, I have driven a Z4M at full chat on Welsh and East Anglia country roads and I don't find it raw - I just found it very, very harsh ( as well as only averaging 13 mpg on the road with only a 11 gal tank !).
High NVH being one but very sharp and aggressive controls ( throttle application, clutch bite, bulky gear change, large steering kickback, front axle being bumped off the ground and general nervousness in the way the car goes down the road ) sums up rawness for me.
Having driven loads of 911 (except for the 991) in our driving club, if it is the rawness you are looking for, then a 997 RWD GTS or a 996 with a M030 suspension kit or a GT3 suspension set up will be even more raw than a 997 C2S or a C4S. Or you can go down to 964 or 930 but they are probably too old as a daily now.
I use my 996T manual I chose over a 997 C2 as my daily and can meet up.
hygt2 said:
Sorry, late to the conversation but here is my question, what do you mean by "raw"?
Hard suspension does not mean raw to me. For example, I have driven a Z4M at full chat on Welsh and East Anglia country roads and I don't find it raw - I just found it very, very harsh ( as well as only averaging 13 mpg on the road with only a 11 gal tank !).
High NVH being one but very sharp and aggressive controls ( throttle application, clutch bite, bulky gear change, large steering kickback, front axle being bumped off the ground and general nervousness in the way the car goes down the road ) sums up rawness for me.
Having driven loads of 911 (except for the 991) in our driving club, if it is the rawness you are looking for, then a 997 RWD GTS or a 996 with a M030 suspension kit or a GT3 suspension set up will be even more raw than a 997 C2S or a C4S. Or you can go down to 964 or 930 but they are probably too old as a daily now.
I use my 996T manual I chose over a 997 C2 as my daily and can meet up.
Extremely raw, to me, would mean a stripped out Exige. I'm not looking to go that far, since my wife will want to drive the car from time to time and she will want to enjoy it being noisy, but not deafening.Hard suspension does not mean raw to me. For example, I have driven a Z4M at full chat on Welsh and East Anglia country roads and I don't find it raw - I just found it very, very harsh ( as well as only averaging 13 mpg on the road with only a 11 gal tank !).
High NVH being one but very sharp and aggressive controls ( throttle application, clutch bite, bulky gear change, large steering kickback, front axle being bumped off the ground and general nervousness in the way the car goes down the road ) sums up rawness for me.
Having driven loads of 911 (except for the 991) in our driving club, if it is the rawness you are looking for, then a 997 RWD GTS or a 996 with a M030 suspension kit or a GT3 suspension set up will be even more raw than a 997 C2S or a C4S. Or you can go down to 964 or 930 but they are probably too old as a daily now.
I use my 996T manual I chose over a 997 C2 as my daily and can meet up.
I think I'm looking to right all the wrongs that I find with my current car (M135i). I used to own a Z4MR, so I know how that feels and I guess what I want is a tin-topped version of that, but with much finer steering detail, more feedback, better damping and spring rates, better gear-change, less slack in the whole thing somehow. Perhaps a bit more Elise-like in its steering and direction changes and certainly with much, much more engine noise.
The M135i feels very indirect, like all the controls are rubberised or attached to the car by elastic band and there are far too many interferences to the driving caused by the electronics (even with all driving aids turned off). I want the controls to feel totally direct; when I squeeze the throttle, it should respond instantaneously, turning into a corner, there should be very little body roll, very little inertia. I don't know what bushings the C2S uses, but I would hope they are at least all solid, if not much firmer, promoting more NVH and feedback.
I think a 997 GTS is going to be out of my price range and like you say, the 930 and 964 may be a little too old for daily use now. I'm a little worried about going for a 996 due to the obvious engine issues, although the 40th anniversary edition appeals due to its LSD and engine upgrades.
bennyboysvuk said:
..... feels very indirect, like all the controls are rubberised or attached to the car by elastic band and there are far too many interferences to the driving caused by the electronics (even with all driving aids turned off)......
Are you sure it's a BMW and not an Audi? 
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