Porsche at the Nordschleife!

[g7jhp]

Taken from post on 911 UK (now with 3 new timed added from post below)!

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Nordschleife times are quite subjective because of different drivers, car config and track conditions. The track differs from year to year because of surface changes (for instance a new/grippy/smooth resurfaced area suddenly makes all cars faster through that section for a season or two). In any event here are some times for comparison (stolen from elsewhere on the web):

7:18 - 997 GT2 RS
7:25 - 991 GT3
7:28 - Carrera GT, Walther Röhrl, Autobild July 2004
7:31 - 997 GT2, Walter Rohl
7:32 - Carrera GT, Horst Von Saurma
7:33 - 997.2 GT3 RS
7:38 - 991 Carrera S
7:38 - 997.1 turbo
7:43 - 996 GT3 RS,Walter Rohrl, MOTOR Magazine
7:46 - 996 GT2
7:47 - 996 GT3 RS, 381PS (2004)
7:49 - 996 GT3 Cup
7:54 - 996 GT3 (2003)
7:56 - 996 turbo
7:59 - 997 C2S (Performance Chassis) (Walter Rohrl - WHEELS June 2004)
8:02 - 997 C2S (Sport PASM setting) (Walter Rohrl - WHEELS June 2004)
8:03 - 996 GT3 (1999)
8:05 - 997 C2S (Normal PASM setting)(Walter Rohrl - WHEELS June 2004)
8:11 - Cayman S (Rohrl, Autoweek 2005)
8:12 - 993 turbo
8:15 - 997 C2 (Walter Rohrl - WHEELS June 2004)
8:17 - 996 C2
8:23 - 996 C4
8:28 - 993 C2
8:32 - Boxster S

So the 993 turbo is about 15 seconds faster than the normal C2 and only marginally faster than a normal 996 C2 around the 'Ring. 996 turbo is a bit faster that the 997 C2S. To get to the OP's question, based on the above the 996 turbo looks like the right tool for the job especially on a wet day.

993 C2 sadly is a bit if a slouch compared to newer cars. My 993 C2S (with no shocks) was about 15 secs faster than my well sorted 964 C2, which was about 30 seconds faster than my over-achieving little 911 SC. Which, in retrospect, was more fun than the others combined.

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Edited by g7jhp on Monday 16th February 11:11

[LaurasOtherHalf]

Fit a set of modern cup tyres on them all and everything becomes a lot more interesting

[alphonso]

I've added a couple more lifted from different sources ...is the GT3 really that fast?

7.25 991 GT3
7:33 997.2 GT3 RS
7:38 991 Carrera S

[swimd]

LaurasOtherHalf said:

Fit a set of modern cup tyres on them all and everything becomes a lot more interesting

All of the above cars on the same tyre compound, now that would be an interesting comparison...

[PR36]

I've been round the ring many times in my cayman s and every time i see walter rohls time of 8.11 I'm astonished. Thats a full lap isn't it, so thats about 7.40 ish bridge to gantry. Unbelievable!

[heelntoe]

swimd said:

All of the above cars on the same tyre compound, now that would be an interesting comparison...

Does anyone know what tyres the 991 C2S was running?

[LaurasOtherHalf]

swimd said:

LaurasOtherHalf said:

Fit a set of modern cup tyres on them all and everything becomes a lot more interesting

All of the above cars on the same tyre compound, now that would be an interesting comparison...

I think a company like Michelin are missing a trick with something like that. Hire out the ring for a couple of days and rag a selection of the last 20 years best sports cars around and compare the times they can now set.

Put the video up on YouTube and gets loads of publicity.

I guess they would worry about upsetting some manufacturers though.

[goldsbd]

Missing 997 GT2,
Walter Rohrl, 7.31, not bad for 7 year old tech with a porridge stirrer, and 3 pedals, no doubt like other cars would be quicker on modern tyres...

[IMIA]

^^^ GT2 on Cups which is a very quick tyre.

http://fastestlaps.com/cars/porsche_997_gt2.html


997.1 turbo on standard rubber 7.38

http://fastestlaps.com/cars/porsche_997_turbo.html

[goldsbd]

IMIA said:

^^^ GT2 on Cups which is a very quick tyre.

http://fastestlaps.com/cars/porsche_997_gt2.html


997.1 turbo on standard rubber 7.38

http://fastestlaps.com/cars/porsche_997_turbo.html

Agree, however the new Cup 2's feel soooo much better than the last Cups that were on and is what I meant by modern tyres. The other times on those links were very telling considering 4 wheel drive off the line, and lack of weight in GT2 getting to 186mph in 33 seconds vs 40.7 secs for the Standard Turbo. Even the new 991 Turbo is only 2 seconds quicker round he ring.

[barchetta_boy]

It's a fascinating list. Although ring times have become the default currency of willy waving in recent years, if you can get some consistency in the environment variables, eg driver, course layout, weather conditions, it really is the ultimate and best answer to the question "how fast is this car?".

The ones that jump out at me from that list are the 991 C2S vs 996 GT3 RS - wow! Really impressive time from the 991.

I would love to know what the Carrera GT could do on the latest Michelin rubber. Doesn't feel right that such a magnificent machine has been deposed by the 991 GT3. Although looked at another way, great that even after 10 years, the CGT is still mixing it with the very best.

Joel

[gaz1234]

GTr faster

[Flat6er]

The 918 was 6.57 wasnt it?

Amazing progress between 997 and 991

[Mermaid]

Flat6er said:

Amazing progress between 997 and 991

Rear, middish engine chassis - PDK, RWS. Really amazingly competent.

[swimd]

barchetta_boy said:

I would love to know what the Carrera GT could do on the latest Michelin rubber. Doesn't feel right that such a magnificent machine has been deposed by the 991 GT3. Although looked at another way, great that even after 10 years, the CGT is still mixing it with the very best.

I remember reading that the CGT would be about 20 seconds faster on current tyre technology (Michelin Pilot Sport Cup 2) but unfortunately I can't find the source.

With 'ring times becoming a marketing instrument it's obvious that car manufacturers are not too keen to point out that much of the performance increase between car generations comes from a relatively a cheap consumable component like the tyres.

LaurasOtherHalf said:

I think a company like Michelin are missing a trick with something like that. Hire out the ring for a couple of days and rag a selection of the last 20 years best sports cars around and compare the times they can now set.

Put the video up on YouTube and gets loads of publicity.

I guess they would worry about upsetting some manufacturers though.

somebody should pitch this to Chris Harris, I believe one of his last videos was sponsored by Pirelli so it would be a perfect match...

[swimd]

barchetta_boy said:

I would love to know what the Carrera GT could do on the latest Michelin rubber. Doesn't feel right that such a magnificent machine has been deposed by the 991 GT3. Although looked at another way, great that even after 10 years, the CGT is still mixing it with the very best.

I remember reading that the CGT would be about 20 seconds faster on current tyre technology (Michelin Pilot Sport Cup 2) but unfortunately I can't find the source.

With 'ring times becoming a marketing instrument it's obvious that car manufacturers are not too keen to point out that much of the performance increase between car generations comes from a relatively a cheap consumable component like the tyres.

LaurasOtherHalf said:

I think a company like Michelin are missing a trick with something like that. Hire out the ring for a couple of days and rag a selection of the last 20 years best sports cars around and compare the times they can now set.

Put the video up on YouTube and gets loads of publicity.

I guess they would worry about upsetting some manufacturers though.

somebody should pitch this to Chris Harris, I believe one of his last videos was sponsored by Pirelli so it would be a perfect match...

Edited by swimd on Sunday 15th February 14:38

[Dan911]

1999 - GT3 was the first car to break 8.00..

8.03 on the list??

[IMIA]

goldsbd said:

IMIA said:

^^^ GT2 on Cups which is a very quick tyre.

http://fastestlaps.com/cars/porsche_997_gt2.html


997.1 turbo on standard rubber 7.38

http://fastestlaps.com/cars/porsche_997_turbo.html

Agree, however the new Cup 2's feel soooo much better than the last Cups that were on and is what I meant by modern tyres. The other times on those links were very telling considering 4 wheel drive off the line, and lack of weight in GT2 getting to 186mph in 33 seconds vs 40.7 secs for the Standard Turbo. Even the new 991 Turbo is only 2 seconds quicker round he ring.

Cups are very quick indeed. Yours were probably old and past their sell by date. In the dry I don't think there's anything in it between Cups and Cup 2s if anything maybe the Cups are a bit quicker. In the wet Cup 2s are a revelation. I have Cup 2s on my 997.1 t and there is so much grip it feels like the chassis is going to rip itself away from the body when cornering hard lol. I'm running similar hybrid GT2 turbos to your car but they've been tricked up by 9e so our very sensitive 997 ECU doesn't pull timing through 4th ,5th and 6th when really on it on track or on extended high speed runs. Even the GT2 RS pulls timing when things get hot so 9e have come up with a very clever solution.

Speaking of GT2 RS the daddy has to be on that list 7.18

http://fastestlaps.com/cars/porsche_997_gt2_rs.htm...

[IMIA]

swimd said:

barchetta_boy said:

I would love to know what the Carrera GT could do on the latest Michelin rubber. Doesn't feel right that such a magnificent machine has been deposed by the 991 GT3. Although looked at another way, great that even after 10 years, the CGT is still mixing it with the very best.

I remember reading that the CGT would be about 20 seconds faster on current tyre technology (Michelin Pilot Sport Cup 2) but unfortunately I can't find the source.

With 'ring times becoming a marketing instrument it's obvious that car manufacturers are not too keen to point out that much of the performance increase between car generations comes from a relatively a cheap consumable component like the tyres.

LaurasOtherHalf said:

I think a company like Michelin are missing a trick with something like that. Hire out the ring for a couple of days and rag a selection of the last 20 years best sports cars around and compare the times they can now set.

Put the video up on YouTube and gets loads of publicity.

I guess they would worry about upsetting some manufacturers though.

somebody should pitch this to Chris Harris, I believe one of his last videos was sponsored by Pirelli so it would be a perfect match...

Edited by swimd on Sunday 15th February 14:38

Chris can peddle but I think he may well struggle to match Porsche factory drivers time in a CGT around N even on Cup 2 or Pirelli Tropheo R. That WR time was set with full factory support i.e. Porsche send a whole pit team with the car and numerous sets of tyres, telemetry equipment etc.

I think in the hands of a factory driver a CGT may perhaps knock 5-10 secs off that 7.28 time on modern rubber

[thegreenhell]

Dan911 said:

1999 - GT3 was the first car to break 8.00..

8.03 on the list??

8:03 was the time of Horst von Saurma of Sport Auto magazine. He's a quick driver but is usually a few seconds off the pace of the factory drivers, partly because he only ever drives two laps of the track in any car; one warm up lap and then the timed lap. I find these times more interesting than the manufacturers' own times because they're independant and consistent in their method.

A list of Porsche laptimes from Sport Auto magazine Supertests:

7:13 - 918 Spyder
7:24 - 997 GT2 RS
7:30 - 997 GT3 RS 4.0
7:32 - Carrera GT
7:32 - 991 GT3
7:33 - 997 GT2
7:33 - 997.2 GT3 RS
7:34 - 991 Turbo S
7:40 - 997.2 GT3
7:44 - 997.2 Turbo S
7:44 - 991 Carrera S
7:46 - 996 GT2
7:47 - 996 GT3 RS
7:47 - 997.2 Turbo
7:48 - 997.1 GT3 RS
7:48 - 997.1 GT3
7:50 - 997.2 Carrera S
7:54 - 997.1 Turbo
7:56 - 996 Turbo
8:03 - 996.1 GT3
8:16 - 987.2 Cayman S
8:17 - 987.2 Boxster S
8:25 - 987.1 Cayman S
8:28 - 993 Carrera
8:32 - 986.1 Boxster S