993 & 7.1 GT3 on/past limit handling under power

[Mario149]

Was just reading another thread where someone was comparing their experience of 987 Cayman R vs 997 (I think) 4S handling and it got me thinking about how my 993 C2 behaves compared to my 7.1 GT3. The former has PSS10s on it and a geo done by Center Gravity (see image below for details) and the GT3 is basically factory standard, albeit raised 8mm so I can clear speedbumps in town.

In the 993, I get what feels like mega amounts of grip for a 20 year old car as I get on the gas coming out of the corner, but when the back breaks away if feels like you have to react very quickly to catch it - weirdly (for me at least!) the faster you're going the easier it is to handle when the tail moves wide - hairpins are the trickiest! When I have it on track, it's great and feels very challenging and is very satisfying, although truth be told, on the road it's a little "exciting" so I try not to go there too often And this is after the geo and suspension work, before it felt much less planted.

Conversely in the GT3, it's very lively under power due to being, well, a lot more powerful(!) and on track you can do fab little drifts out of corners even as an amateur like me. It does feel rear-engined, but never scary, just very intuitive. On the road it's a hoot, you can chuck it like a go-kart and come out of every t-junction with some oppo on if you fancy. In the wet it's even better as you don't have to be going fast at all

Has anyone else found the same thing driving these 2 models of cars? If you'd asked me and I didn't own them, I would have said that the GT3 would have been the more difficult car to chuck around and far more edgy. I guess maybe it's a feel thing, that possible in the GT3 you're so dialed in to what the car is doing (especially with the bucket seats) that it might actually be, if you "measured" it, more difficult to drive in theory, but in reality easier due to the feedback. Or is it simply that the 993 is an older car and no matter what you do to it, it's always going to be more of a handful?

Finally, just to clarify, I'm not complaining at all about the 993. I love the fact that I have 2 cars with the same fundamental layout that are in theory just evolutions of the same model yet handle so differently. It really does make every spirited drive in them an occasion

[Orangecurry]

Jackal - your thread has arrived.

I only have 50% of the information you require. I find the 993 always to be progressive and informative, and it hasn't fooled me yet, road or track, but I did get my race licence (kin years ago) driving a race-spec MG midget with no suspension travel.

This is on Bilstein HDs (the set-up of choice ten years ago) with lowering Techart springs at about RS+5, so not really standard.

I was provoking the car using 'power' and weight transfer when exiting the Goodwood chicane.

Nothing happened 'suddenly' - I could take it further each lap, and the only bad thing I observed was the Head Marshal (John) coming out of the office to 'stare' me slower (with hands on hips) when I was too sideways for him

Edited by Orangecurry on Tuesday 20th January 11:46

[Mario149]

Forgot to add, the 993 is on Bridgestone S02s in case it's relevant

[boxsey]

I find it interesting that your 993 has a CG geo and the GT3 a standard geo (presumably done elsewhere). A friend and myself both have track focused 964s with KW suspension. Initially both were set up at our local specialist (Unit 11) with 964RS geo specs. Driven back to back they drove very similar and were very predictable - I drove them both round Castle Combe. Since then he's had a full geo at CG. Now, they're like two different cars. His has a much sharper turn in but it's also a lot more edgy. So, two different geos have made a big difference.

[Mario149]

boxsey said:

I find it interesting that your 993 has a CG geo and the GT3 a standard geo (presumably done elsewhere). A friend and myself both have track focused 964s with KW suspension. Initially both were set up at our local specialist (Unit 11) with 964RS geo specs. Driven back to back they drove very similar and were very predictable - I drove them both round Castle Combe. Since then he's had a full geo at CG. Now, they're like two different cars. His has a much sharper turn in but it's also a lot more edgy. So, two different geos have made a big difference.

I only got the GT3 in August and it was "reset" to factory + 8mm by Jaz (I think it was them...) before I picked it up from 911V. The 993 I had done about 1 year ago before the GT3 was a twinkle in my impulse-buying eye.

Interesting that after a trip to CG his is quite edgy as well - I told them that I basically didn't want any understeer (I recounted how under power my 6C4S always used to just wash wide after the apex on anything other than a hairpin virtually, the back never moved) and give me something sensible on that premise that wouldn't behave like the C4S did. And they delivered in spades

At the moment, the GT3 is the only performance car I've owned where I literally don't want to do anything to it+++. It drives and handles amazingly and sounds great.

The suspension work I had done to the 993 has been fab for hooning, but I think that I may switch it out for new shocks/springs to make it more comfortable after my next track day in a couple of weeks - I have the GT3 to beat me up now - and sell on the trick PSS10s and springs.

+++= Ok, that's a small lie, I actually quite fancy a cup final drive to solve the, for me, over long gearing, but the quote was £3k which is a bit too pricey unless everything being pulled apart for another reason already. And if I was using it daily I'd try and get some regular seats and put the buckets into storage, but I don't so I won't.

[ras62]

I imagine the GT3 has a LSD, what about the 993?

[Mario149]

ras62 said:

I imagine the GT3 has a LSD, what about the 993?

GT3 yes, 993 no.

Would a LSD make the breakaway on the 993 a bit more sedate? i.e. does the inside wheel spinning up make the car want to rotate faster?

[ras62]

An LSD would certainly make a slide easier to control and I guess because less power is being transferred into forward motion then yes rotation would happen faster with an open diff.

[d41d8cd9]

Could part of it be that you're driving the 993 closer to the limit than the GT3?

I doubt that raising the GT3 by 8mm has done any favours to its handling.