The end of the 911 Turbo?
Discussion
I read in the latest Car magazine that from next year, all Porsche models will come with forced induction - does that mean that everything will be turbo'd then?
If so, what will the 911 turbo be called? Given every 911 will now be a 911 Turbo?
Long term implications on 'Turbo' monicker of previous iterations too? Something that was previously only available at the top is now in every model. So why should the next generation bother to seek out an older Turbo.
Thoughts?
If so, what will the 911 turbo be called? Given every 911 will now be a 911 Turbo?
Long term implications on 'Turbo' monicker of previous iterations too? Something that was previously only available at the top is now in every model. So why should the next generation bother to seek out an older Turbo.
Thoughts?
I don't think so. They'll give the halo turbo model even more power than a nuclear generator and pumped up super hero looks so the turbo is safe. Also the Mezger 996 and 997 turbo which can both run up to 700 bhp on stock engine are already being sought out by the next generation. Air-cooled turbos are sure fire classics and commanding up to £750,000 in 993 GT2 guise!
Paul O said:
I read in the latest Car magazine that from next year, all Porsche models will come with forced induction - does that mean that everything will be turbo'd then?
If so, what will the 911 turbo be called? Given every 911 will now be a 911 Turbo?
Long term implications on 'Turbo' monicker of previous iterations too? Something that was previously only available at the top is now in every model. So why should the next generation bother to seek out an older Turbo.
Thoughts?
The 911 Turbo will henceforth be called *drumroll* - the 978.If so, what will the 911 turbo be called? Given every 911 will now be a 911 Turbo?
Long term implications on 'Turbo' monicker of previous iterations too? Something that was previously only available at the top is now in every model. So why should the next generation bother to seek out an older Turbo.
Thoughts?
458 said:
The 911 Turbo will still be called the 911 Turbo, I think, and the rest of the range will still be called what they are today.
There are 4 models of Macan - all 4 are turbocharged, but only one is a 'Turbo'.
Likewise with Panamera - 9 models - only the base V6 and GTS are naturally aspirated - only one called 'Turbo'
Ditto Cayenne - 7 models - only the base V6 is naturally aspirated and only one is called 'Turbo'.
wow I had absolutely no idea this was the case, shows how much attention I pay to the 'bigger' Porsche cars. It will be interesting to see what effect this has on the turbo though, it may hurt residuals on the older turbo's as newer 'lesser' models will offer just as much power/tuneabilityThere are 4 models of Macan - all 4 are turbocharged, but only one is a 'Turbo'.
Likewise with Panamera - 9 models - only the base V6 and GTS are naturally aspirated - only one called 'Turbo'
Ditto Cayenne - 7 models - only the base V6 is naturally aspirated and only one is called 'Turbo'.
g7jhp said:
Surely all the existing '911 turbo's' will be 'proper' turbo's with 6 cylinder engines. The new cars will probably be 4 pots.
Therefore the 930, 964, 993, 996, 997 and 991 turbo's should retain their classic value.
I'd like to think so but i'm not sure thats the case, from what i've read the top of the line carreras will have 400hp~ from a 3.8 6 cylinder!Therefore the 930, 964, 993, 996, 997 and 991 turbo's should retain their classic value.
So even if that is the case that is hardly offering 'just as much power' like you mentioned?
997.2 Turbo S- 530 bhp and 700Nm torque (without overboost). 518 lb-ft at 2100 rpm's.
0-60 3.0 seconds, 1/4 mile 10.7 seconds stock.
Stock cars have in some independent tests achieved 0-60 under 3 seconds using launch control.
Show me a stock Carrera that will do that?
There is and will always be only one model in each range designated with the 'turbo' badge- that's what counts.
997.2 Turbo S- 530 bhp and 700Nm torque (without overboost). 518 lb-ft at 2100 rpm's.
0-60 3.0 seconds, 1/4 mile 10.7 seconds stock.
Stock cars have in some independent tests achieved 0-60 under 3 seconds using launch control.
Show me a stock Carrera that will do that?
There is and will always be only one model in each range designated with the 'turbo' badge- that's what counts.
Chad_Hugo said:
So even if that is the case that is hardly offering 'just as much power' like you mentioned?
997.2 Turbo S- 530 bhp and 700Nm torque (without overboost). 518 lb-ft at 2100 rpm's.
0-60 3.0 seconds, 1/4 mile 10.7 seconds stock.
Stock cars have in some independent tests achieved 0-60 under 3 seconds using launch control.
Show me a stock Carrera that will do that?
There is and will always be only one model in each range designated with the 'turbo' badge- that's what counts.
Out of the box perhaps not for the 997.2 but it will be in shooting range of a 996/997.1 and well within reach of the 997.2 after some light tuning. If this is the case it would only be a matter of time (generation after next) where they will be releasing 500hp Carreras capable of dispatching 997.2T's. My point is what was once a single model in the range offering huge tuning potential and power will now be catered for by the entire Carrera range. Could mean bad news for Turbo residuals, why buy an older used 997.2T when you can have a 99(2?!) 500hp turbo Carrera?997.2 Turbo S- 530 bhp and 700Nm torque (without overboost). 518 lb-ft at 2100 rpm's.
0-60 3.0 seconds, 1/4 mile 10.7 seconds stock.
Stock cars have in some independent tests achieved 0-60 under 3 seconds using launch control.
Show me a stock Carrera that will do that?
There is and will always be only one model in each range designated with the 'turbo' badge- that's what counts.
A sad day imo and will only hurt/water down the turbo range.
Edited by shantybeater on Friday 26th December 00:58
shantybeater said:
Chad_Hugo said:
So even if that is the case that is hardly offering 'just as much power' like you mentioned?
997.2 Turbo S- 530 bhp and 700Nm torque (without overboost). 518 lb-ft at 2100 rpm's.
0-60 3.0 seconds, 1/4 mile 10.7 seconds stock.
Stock cars have in some independent tests achieved 0-60 under 3 seconds using launch control.
Show me a stock Carrera that will do that?
There is and will always be only one model in each range designated with the 'turbo' badge- that's what counts.
Out of the box perhaps not for the 997.2 but it will be in shooting range of a 996/997.1 and well within reach of the 997.2 after some light tuning. If this is the case it would only be a matter of time (generation after next) where they will be releasing 500hp Carreras capable of dispatching 997.2T's. My point is what was once a single model in the range offering huge tuning potential and power will now be catered for by the entire Carrera range. Could mean bad news for Turbo residuals, why buy an older used 997.2T when you can have a 99(2?!) 500hp turbo Carrera?997.2 Turbo S- 530 bhp and 700Nm torque (without overboost). 518 lb-ft at 2100 rpm's.
0-60 3.0 seconds, 1/4 mile 10.7 seconds stock.
Stock cars have in some independent tests achieved 0-60 under 3 seconds using launch control.
Show me a stock Carrera that will do that?
There is and will always be only one model in each range designated with the 'turbo' badge- that's what counts.
A sad day imo and will only hurt/water down the turbo range.
A few thoughts on this:
- The chances are that the newer engines will be downsized and run on lower threshold parts, there will probably be potential to tune but it won't be like the 997 Turbo's where you could throw an extra 100-300BHP through the engine by just enhancing the parts around it. We might see +50bhp by binning the emissions regs and upping the RPM, I am not expecting to see anything more than that
- they won't be able to crack the ECU so, it will require piggy-back hardware. Not a problem for the single-minded enthusiast but, on a £100k car ?
- The 991 C2S is already quicker around a track than a 997 Turbo, down to its clean sheet chassis and technology upgrades. This has not killed off the 997 Turbo residuals
- Heat and air induction. The Carrera's will have some additional cooling and induction to handle the turbo's at stock, how do you cool and feed a much larger BHP/FT output with limited options? The 911 Turbo's run pretty hot as it is with all their additional holes.
Finally, it would not surprise me if Porsche placed something into the PDK programming or mechanics as a 'safety catch'. We conveniently have a 630BHP limit on the 997 Turbo PDK, pretty high by most standards. Can't see this level of hardware being carried over onto the Gen2 991 C2S 'Turbo'.
Carl_Docklands said:
A few thoughts on this:
- The chances are that the newer engines will be downsized and run on lower threshold parts, there will probably be potential to tune but it won't be like the 997 Turbo's where you could throw an extra 100-300BHP through the engine by just enhancing the parts around it. We might see +50bhp by binning the emissions regs and upping the RPM, I am not expecting to see anything more than that
- they won't be able to crack the ECU so, it will require piggy-back hardware. Not a problem for the single-minded enthusiast but, on a £100k car ?
- Heat and air induction. The Carrera's will have some additional cooling and induction to handle the turbo's at stock, how do you cool and feed a much larger BHP/FT output with limited options? The 911 Turbo's run pretty hot as it is with all their additional holes.
Finally, it would not surprise me if Porsche placed something into the PDK programming or mechanics as a 'safety catch'. We conveniently have a 630BHP limit on the 997 Turbo PDK, pretty high by most standards. Can't see this level of hardware being carried over onto the Gen2 991 C2S 'Turbo'.
This is pretty much spot on. - The chances are that the newer engines will be downsized and run on lower threshold parts, there will probably be potential to tune but it won't be like the 997 Turbo's where you could throw an extra 100-300BHP through the engine by just enhancing the parts around it. We might see +50bhp by binning the emissions regs and upping the RPM, I am not expecting to see anything more than that
- they won't be able to crack the ECU so, it will require piggy-back hardware. Not a problem for the single-minded enthusiast but, on a £100k car ?
- Heat and air induction. The Carrera's will have some additional cooling and induction to handle the turbo's at stock, how do you cool and feed a much larger BHP/FT output with limited options? The 911 Turbo's run pretty hot as it is with all their additional holes.
Finally, it would not surprise me if Porsche placed something into the PDK programming or mechanics as a 'safety catch'. We conveniently have a 630BHP limit on the 997 Turbo PDK, pretty high by most standards. Can't see this level of hardware being carried over onto the Gen2 991 C2S 'Turbo'.
The Mezger engine was a result of decades of race track development hence why it can be tuned so highly, the A91 997.2 turbo engine has never been raced and never will so its limits will be whatever Porsche engineered them to be certainly above 850NM starts to cause case movement. The new small turbo engines will simply be engineered with low limits in terms of strength and cooling and of course the integrated ECUs will be made extremely difficult to modify properly.
Moving forward the differentiation in power levels across the range which Porsche marketing has always been so keen in controlling so finely will be assured so they will be able to maintain whatever gap they deem sufficient for each new "turbo" version to stand out amongst the lesser models.
Also agree with that. Reading a thread on the new Turbo M3 and M5 reveals ECUs are getting far easier to crack.
The VAG group have had to do this with their 2.0T, which is in all manner of Skodas, Seats, Audis and VWs. Same engines in different state of tunes, but the lower powered ones don't have the cooling and better pistons to make the same power as 'safely' and they certainly can't be pushed without spending a lot of money on all of those upgraded parts.
The VAG group have had to do this with their 2.0T, which is in all manner of Skodas, Seats, Audis and VWs. Same engines in different state of tunes, but the lower powered ones don't have the cooling and better pistons to make the same power as 'safely' and they certainly can't be pushed without spending a lot of money on all of those upgraded parts.
TB993tt said:
This is pretty much spot on.
The Mezger engine was a result of decades of race track development hence why it can be tuned so highly, the A91 997.2 turbo engine has never been raced and never will so its limits will be whatever Porsche engineered them to be certainly above 850NM starts to cause case movement. The new small turbo engines will simply be engineered with low limits in terms of strength and cooling and of course the integrated ECUs will be made extremely difficult to modify properly.
Moving forward the differentiation in power levels across the range which Porsche marketing has always been so keen in controlling so finely will be assured so they will be able to maintain whatever gap they deem sufficient for each new "turbo" version to stand out amongst the lesser models.
This is just simply untrue, I ran a run of the mil 1.8T Seat Ibiza at double its production hp figure (150hp/330hp). The engine took over 80,000 miles of hard driving without showing any signs of stress, its still being actively used by a friend who bought it. The same goes for the 2.0T VAG lump which can be easily tuned, and the 2.5T in the TTRS etc...The Mezger engine was a result of decades of race track development hence why it can be tuned so highly, the A91 997.2 turbo engine has never been raced and never will so its limits will be whatever Porsche engineered them to be certainly above 850NM starts to cause case movement. The new small turbo engines will simply be engineered with low limits in terms of strength and cooling and of course the integrated ECUs will be made extremely difficult to modify properly.
Moving forward the differentiation in power levels across the range which Porsche marketing has always been so keen in controlling so finely will be assured so they will be able to maintain whatever gap they deem sufficient for each new "turbo" version to stand out amongst the lesser models.
Engines don't need to have 'race heritage' to take power hikes.
hondansx said:
Also agree with that. Reading a thread on the new Turbo M3 and M5 reveals ECUs are getting far easier to crack.
The VAG group have had to do this with their 2.0T, which is in all manner of Skodas, Seats, Audis and VWs. Same engines in different state of tunes, but the lower powered ones don't have the cooling and better pistons to make the same power as 'safely' and they certainly can't be pushed without spending a lot of money on all of those upgraded parts.
The internals from model to model are EXACTLY the same, even the same engine code, in some cases a different turbo is bolted on and perhaps a better IC but thats it.The VAG group have had to do this with their 2.0T, which is in all manner of Skodas, Seats, Audis and VWs. Same engines in different state of tunes, but the lower powered ones don't have the cooling and better pistons to make the same power as 'safely' and they certainly can't be pushed without spending a lot of money on all of those upgraded parts.
Prime example:
Seat Ibiza Cupra 1.8T - K03 Turbo
VW Golf GTi 1.8T - K03 Turbo
Seat Leon Cupra 1.8T - K03S
Seat Leon Cupra R 1.8T - K04
Audi S3 1.8T - K04
It would be more expensive for VW to create different spec engines for each model. The 2.0T variants I'm fairly sure most even have the same turbo just a different state of tune. Just google what sort of HP a 2.0T and 2.5T can take reliably without upgrading any of the internals
Edited by shantybeater on Monday 29th December 18:44
I think the context is slightly different than with the VAG engines, the standard flat6 Na engine is already pretty stressed at 400hp (look what they have to do extra to get 430hp out of it and that's with lower torque!) going from 400 to 500 hp is a bigger jump in a 911 than what the numbers would suggest.
this is why the ricers love the gtr, the engine is well over specced and in most cases upgrading the parts around the engine is all that is required for big gains. The current flat 6 is not the same beasty, there is a lot of complexity going on with a 997 turbo engine which can't be replicated as easily as it can on other cars.
Carl_Docklands said:
I think the context is slightly different than with the VAG engines, the standard flat6 Na engine is already pretty stressed at 400hp (look what they have to do extra to get 430hp out of it and that's with lower torque!) going from 400 to 500 hp is a bigger jump in a 911 than what the numbers would suggest.
this is why the ricers love the gtr, the engine is well over specced and in most cases upgrading the parts around the engine is all that is required for big gains. The current flat 6 is not the same beasty, there is a lot of complexity going on with a 997 turbo engine which can't be replicated as easily as it can on other cars.
+1 again and an important element is the heat generated by the Porsche turbo engines, the packaging of the rear/mid engine models makes heat management a real challenge and as said above we are dealing with 400+hp which produces a lot of it.this is why the ricers love the gtr, the engine is well over specced and in most cases upgrading the parts around the engine is all that is required for big gains. The current flat 6 is not the same beasty, there is a lot of complexity going on with a 997 turbo engine which can't be replicated as easily as it can on other cars.
I'm not so convinced with the GTRs real power capability, sure with mega bucks and proper build big hp is there just like with some of the outrageous high boost Porsche turbos people build but I can count on (half of) one hand the number of 700hp+ GTRs going over 200mph at vmax which requires a real 650 - 700hp to achieve.
I am not slating the GTR here more pointing out that adding real hp is not as simple as lots of people have you believe and to increase a new 400hp turboed Carrera to 500 real hp will not be simple. There will be lots of claims that a chip will do this but get them down a 1.5mile straight and the real power will be revealed.
Carl_Docklands said:
I think the context is slightly different than with the VAG engines, the standard flat6 Na engine is already pretty stressed at 400hp (look what they have to do extra to get 430hp out of it and that's with lower torque!) going from 400 to 500 hp is a bigger jump in a 911 than what the numbers would suggest.
this is why the ricers love the gtr, the engine is well over specced and in most cases upgrading the parts around the engine is all that is required for big gains. The current flat 6 is not the same beasty, there is a lot of complexity going on with a 997 turbo engine which can't be replicated as easily as it can on other cars.
I completely agree, 400hp is more than 100hp per liter and very impressive in na form. The thing is though they won't be using the carrera engine as a basis, they will be using the 997T DFI as a foundation, infact I wouldn't be suprised if they used the same engine but deliberately restrained it. It will cost alot more to redesign a n/a engine than it would to take a previous gen turbo engine and bung it in a carrerathis is why the ricers love the gtr, the engine is well over specced and in most cases upgrading the parts around the engine is all that is required for big gains. The current flat 6 is not the same beasty, there is a lot of complexity going on with a 997 turbo engine which can't be replicated as easily as it can on other cars.
Edited by shantybeater on Wednesday 31st December 14:06
TB993tt said:
+1 again and an important element is the heat generated by the Porsche turbo engines, the packaging of the rear/mid engine models makes heat management a real challenge and as said above we are dealing with 400+hp which produces a lot of it.
I'm not so convinced with the GTRs real power capability, sure with mega bucks and proper build big hp is there just like with some of the outrageous high boost Porsche turbos people build but I can count on (half of) one hand the number of 700hp+ GTRs going over 200mph at vmax which requires a real 650 - 700hp to achieve.
I am not slating the GTR here more pointing out that adding real hp is not as simple as lots of people have you believe and to increase a new 400hp turboed Carrera to 500 real hp will not be simple. There will be lots of claims that a chip will do this but get them down a 1.5mile straight and the real power will be revealed.
Why do you believe a new Turbo Carrera will by untuneable when EVERY turbo porsche (or most manufacturer for that matter) before it has been?I'm not so convinced with the GTRs real power capability, sure with mega bucks and proper build big hp is there just like with some of the outrageous high boost Porsche turbos people build but I can count on (half of) one hand the number of 700hp+ GTRs going over 200mph at vmax which requires a real 650 - 700hp to achieve.
I am not slating the GTR here more pointing out that adding real hp is not as simple as lots of people have you believe and to increase a new 400hp turboed Carrera to 500 real hp will not be simple. There will be lots of claims that a chip will do this but get them down a 1.5mile straight and the real power will be revealed.
Edited by shantybeater on Wednesday 31st December 14:09
shantybeater said:
TB993tt said:
+1 again and an important element is the heat generated by the Porsche turbo engines, the packaging of the rear/mid engine models makes heat management a real challenge and as said above we are dealing with 400+hp which produces a lot of it.
I'm not so convinced with the GTRs real power capability, sure with mega bucks and proper build big hp is there just like with some of the outrageous high boost Porsche turbos people build but I can count on (half of) one hand the number of 700hp+ GTRs going over 200mph at vmax which requires a real 650 - 700hp to achieve.
I am not slating the GTR here more pointing out that adding real hp is not as simple as lots of people have you believe and to increase a new 400hp turboed Carrera to 500 real hp will not be simple. There will be lots of claims that a chip will do this but get them down a 1.5mile straight and the real power will be revealed.
Why do you believe a new Turbo Carrera will by untuneable when EVERY turbo porsche (or most manufacturer for that matter) before it has been?I'm not so convinced with the GTRs real power capability, sure with mega bucks and proper build big hp is there just like with some of the outrageous high boost Porsche turbos people build but I can count on (half of) one hand the number of 700hp+ GTRs going over 200mph at vmax which requires a real 650 - 700hp to achieve.
I am not slating the GTR here more pointing out that adding real hp is not as simple as lots of people have you believe and to increase a new 400hp turboed Carrera to 500 real hp will not be simple. There will be lots of claims that a chip will do this but get them down a 1.5mile straight and the real power will be revealed.
Edited by shantybeater on Wednesday 31st December 14:09
By contrast there are monster Mezger turbos running a reliable 1500 bhp with new rods and head studs. I know of one at 9e that is going for the world top speed record next year at 275mph. I estimate it will need circa 2000 bhp at the crank to achieve that top speed.
Of course everything is tuneable. Is it reliable is another matter!
shantybeater said:
TB993tt said:
+1 again and an important element is the heat generated by the Porsche turbo engines, the packaging of the rear/mid engine models makes heat management a real challenge and as said above we are dealing with 400+hp which produces a lot of it.
I'm not so convinced with the GTRs real power capability, sure with mega bucks and proper build big hp is there just like with some of the outrageous high boost Porsche turbos people build but I can count on (half of) one hand the number of 700hp+ GTRs going over 200mph at vmax which requires a real 650 - 700hp to achieve.
I am not slating the GTR here more pointing out that adding real hp is not as simple as lots of people have you believe and to increase a new 400hp turboed Carrera to 500 real hp will not be simple. There will be lots of claims that a chip will do this but get them down a 1.5mile straight and the real power will be revealed.
Why do you believe a new Turbo Carrera will by untuneable when EVERY turbo porsche (or most manufacturer for that matter) before it has been?I'm not so convinced with the GTRs real power capability, sure with mega bucks and proper build big hp is there just like with some of the outrageous high boost Porsche turbos people build but I can count on (half of) one hand the number of 700hp+ GTRs going over 200mph at vmax which requires a real 650 - 700hp to achieve.
I am not slating the GTR here more pointing out that adding real hp is not as simple as lots of people have you believe and to increase a new 400hp turboed Carrera to 500 real hp will not be simple. There will be lots of claims that a chip will do this but get them down a 1.5mile straight and the real power will be revealed.
Edited by shantybeater on Wednesday 31st December 14:09
if you want to go out right now and turbo charge an off the shelf 991 GTS to go from 430hp to 530hp the resulting calculation is going to be so big in terms of cost you might as well go and just buy a turbo.
the game won't change just because the turbos and intercoolers are there from day one. for example, on the 997 turbo to turbo s, you can do a simple remap to get you to the 30 hp gain Porsche provide however, Porsche themselves use upgraded manifolds in order to cope with the additional heat load as well as the Ecu change. I would imagine that heat management on the 991 is complicated further by the fact that the engine is even further inside the chassis than on the 997.
over arching though will be porsches passion not to create a tuning scene for the 911, they will always protect the brand from this, they are compete masters at nurturing the anti-ricer sentiment (it's not good business for them) and it wouldn't surprise me if extra checks were put in place at the Ecu level to further detect and record any tampering as well as the aforementioned points I made earlier about hardware limitations for engine internals and pdk/gearbox.
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