LHD 997 GT3s gen 1 - why worth more in UK?

[S1MMA]

Not another thread on value of cars I hear you say.... But this one is sliiiightly different.

I've heard from a few specialists and also read online, that LHD 997 GT3 Gen 1 are worth slightly more than RHD. I've seen a few cars advertised for similar money to RHD or even a bit more also. Now I appreciate international demand and LHD countries vs RHD etc, and the benefits of a LHD car for continental driving, and also the benefits of LHD e.g. Pedal offset, larger fuel tank, better on track (weight distribution for clockwise tracks etc) but I want to ask is there any other reason? Is it simply a demand/supply issue, difficulty to source uk registered LHD cars with proven provenance? Appreciate when you get to cars like the 4.0RS the RHDs are worth more, but has the 997 GT3 got more enthusiast support at it's much cheaper price point to make it different? What about 996?

If it's tough to find a RHD at the moment, LHD must be verrrry difficult? What's the PH view?

[thegreenhell]

S1MMA said:

better on track (weight distribution for clockwise tracks etc)

The weight distribution is actually a theoretical disadvantage on a clockwise circuit, assuming no pax in the car. In a RH bend you want more weight on the RH side of the car to offset the weight transfer caused by the cornering forces.

[DiscoColin]

LHD prices are due to strong prices on the continent - if LHD cars are keenly priced in the UK then people buy them from overseas and export them to elsewhere in the EU. The same is somewhat bizarrely also true of cooking porkers - even an LHD 2.5 986 in the UK is worth thousands more than RHD due to continental demand. This is also where most of the LHD air cooled 911s that have been over here went (many came in back in the day as they were much cheaper once upon a time, but due to market demand and currency shifts they are getting pretty scarce in the market now). A friend of mine who runs classic Bentleys reckons that the Germans in particular are investing a lot in cars of all premium marques at the moment and that is both taking them out of the country and driving up prices.

In short - it is all supply, demand and export.

[S1MMA]

thegreenhell said:

The weight distribution is actually a theoretical disadvantage on a clockwise circuit, assuming no pax in the car. In a RH bend you want more weight on the RH side of the car to offset the weight transfer caused by the cornering forces.

Ah, I thought it was the other way around? I think the difference is fairly negligible either way in terms of lap times, but would angle of view of right hand corners be better in LHD as you are better placed to see through apex to exit?

[S1MMA]

DiscoColin said:

LHD prices are due to strong prices on the continent - if LHD cars are keenly priced in the UK then people buy them from overseas and export them to elsewhere in the EU. The same is somewhat bizarrely also true of cooking porkers - even an LHD 2.5 986 in the UK is worth thousands more than RHD due to continental demand. This is also where most of the LHD air cooled 911s that have been over here went (many came in back in the day as they were much cheaper once upon a time, but due to market demand and currency shifts they are getting pretty scarce in the market now). A friend of mine who runs classic Bentleys reckons that the Germans in particular are investing a lot in cars of all premium marques at the moment and that is both taking them out of the country and driving up prices.

In short - it is all supply, demand and export.

Interesting, thanks for the post. Makes sense that way, what's the prediction going forwards? Your view on next 2-3 years? Would a correction in the price of some classics/rare models have any impact on LHD pricing?

[thegreenhell]

S1MMA said:

thegreenhell said:

The weight distribution is actually a theoretical disadvantage on a clockwise circuit, assuming no pax in the car. In a RH bend you want more weight on the RH side of the car to offset the weight transfer caused by the cornering forces.

Ah, I thought it was the other way around? I think the difference is fairly negligible either way in terms of lap times, but would angle of view of right hand corners be better in LHD as you are better placed to see through apex to exit?

The relationship between tyre load and grip is non-linear, so while increasing the load on a tyre will increase the lateral force it can sustain (up to the point where you overload it), overall the maximum lateral force a car can sustain is obtained when all four tyres are equally loaded. Four equally-loaded tyres will have more combined grip available than two similar tyres with double the load, IYSYIM. In practice this isn't possible to achieve without an asymmetrical car, which of course a road car with only a driver aboard is. However, the average trackday-goer would likely not notice a jot of difference in performance between LHD and RHD from this effect anyway.

The visibility question is less clear cut. Some will argue that it is instincively easier to position a car in a corner if the driver's eyeline is directly in line with both the apex and the tyre that he wishes to clip that apex with, ie RHD for a RH bend and vice versa. Most circuits are clockwise, and have 360 degrees more RH bend than LH, so this theory would favour RHD. Others will claim that you get better visibility around the corner from being on the opposite side of the car, but I can only see that really being a benefit if the corner is blind, which is not the case on most modern circuits. The issue is further complicated by modern cars having great thick A-pillars, which we all know tend to obscure visibility in many situations on road and track, especially when turning right with RHD and left with LHD.

Whatever the arguments, you just have to look at the fact that by far the vast majority of racing prototypes built since WW2 and designed to race on Europe's predominantly clockwise circuits have been RHD, even from manufacturers based in LHD countries. Take a look at all Porsche prototypes up to and including the 911 GT1, all significant Ferrari prototypes up to and including the 333SP, Ford GT40, Alfa Romeo T33, the French Matra and Alpine Le Mans cars, the Sauber-Mercedes Group C cars... all RHD.

The current racers from Audi and Porsche are all LHD of course. Clever packaging and predominance of aerodynamic effects will largely negate any weight distribution issues, but I'm not sure if the swith to LHD is driven by modern corporate culture in those companies, or by the necessities of visibility. These closed cars seem very hard to see out of at all due to a combination of thick A-pillars from the roll cage, ultra-low seating position, and increasingly high front wheel arches. None of these last arguments really affects a road car though, on track or otherwise.

[DiscoColin]

S1MMA said:

Interesting, thanks for the post. Makes sense that way, what's the prediction going forwards? Your view on next 2-3 years? Would a correction in the price of some classics/rare models have any impact on LHD pricing?

Difficult to tell where it goes from here. There are some who think that it is a bubble that will burst and others who just look at an increasing global market and the fairly sound logic that the rich aren't getting poorer... Personally I think that it is risky to take a short term view on it, but in the medium to long term the real question is whether the cost of properly maintaining a classic or future classic will swallow any gains made. This is why to me it only makes sense to consider cars as an appreciating asset if you plan to benefit from actually using them. Thus you are paying the running costs to use it and the profit would be genuine.

As for corrections to LHD values - that sort of answers its own question. Exporting within the EU doesn't entail a tax hit, so it would seem logical that wherever they are located, LHD values will gravitate to continental prices. The strongest market is probably Germany in this context - so tracking what cars are going for on mobile.de is likely as good an indicator as anything to where things are and where they are going.