Cyclist v Learner driver (Not a rant, honest)

[T1berious]

Fellow PHer's

I just wanted a common sense check as I'm lost and confused. At the weekend me and the Mrs were riding to the Gym (currently training for getting back into Triathalon but that's another thread).

So I'm approaching a round about at about 20 mph, check my right all clear, I hit the pistons as I like to minimise my TED at roundabouts. Learner on my left sees me, I'm looking her in the eye, she then pulls out. I'm having a WTF? moment as I'm centimeters away from getting hit, nothing I can do.

Somehow, the instructor, traffic gods, the drivers better sense intervenes and she stops. barely an inch from me.

My query is this:

Was the Instructor asleep, he's got dual control?
Where would I have stood legally in the event of being hit? I'm guessing the Learner is the driver so liable?

My next point is purely from a "hold up guv" moment, If a learner isn't being taught proper observation you can't really expect them to get that as they move along in life, are standards that bad? (could be isolated event and I accept that).

In addition I was dressed a luminous yellow gimp.

Anyone with info on legal stand point greatly appreciated, pant wetting aside no harm done just curious.

Cheers,

T1b

(reposted here)

[TwistingMyMelon]

Sounds scary, we have all had it thou, think you are reading too much into it

From what you say you would have claimed off the instructors insurance and they would be ultimately liable

Instructor might have been dosy/caught out, accidents happen, ultimately they did their job.

You could have been in their blind spot, or going too quick hence the lack of seeing you, not saying that excuses it but it explains it

[Vanya]

On a bog standard rdbt, i.e. not hybrid with lights or dedicated lanes, the traffic on the rdbt has priority.

HTH.

[Daveyraveygravey]

Not sure on the legal stand point, would think it would be deemed driver's fault although other witnesses may muddy the waters.

I would say from the driver's viewpoint that is one of the most likely chances of having a SMIDSY. I nearly got a cyclist myself at an angled t-junction (so a bit like a roundabout) a few months ago. He was approaching from my right, and although I looked I didn't see him. He may have been in the blindspot caused by the windscreen pillar, I may have looked for something big like a car or lorry, or I may have not looked properly. Luckily I glanced in front of me before accelerating and there he was about 1m away from the bonnet.

It's taught me to look at least twice, take my time doing it, and look again when I am in the car, and when I am on the bike I assume no-one has seen me. I wear fluoro and take care but it is so easy to become a victim of this.

[yellowjack]

I'm in the middle of a claim against a driver who actually did hit me at a roundabout. Three months along and I'm still in pain from it, and beginning physio at their expense on Tuesday. I shall update my tale if/when there is a definitive result. Otherwise, nothing I have to say will be anything more than conjecture, and will be of no help to anyone.

[TheLemming]

Always treat learner drivers like they are going to try and kill you and you can't go far wrong.
Same with lorries and buses.....

Admittedly sometimes there's not a lot you can do

[T1berious]

yellowjack said:

I'm in the middle of a claim against a driver who actually did hit me at a roundabout. Three months along and I'm still in pain from it, and beginning physio at their expense on Tuesday. I shall update my tale if/when there is a definitive result. Otherwise, nothing I have to say will be anything more than conjecture, and will be of no help to anyone.

Mate,

Really sorry to hear that Good luck the physio and I wish you a speedy recovery. This always scares me, more so for my Mrs than me as she's new to road biking (after 15 years as a die hard MTBer) and rides daily to work.

Strange thing is, even when I drive I always double check, that extra second won't really hamper my chances of making my destination.

[TwistingMyMelon]

TheLemming said:

Always treat learner drivers like they are going to try and kill you and you can't go far wrong.
Same with lorries and buses.....

Admittedly sometimes there's not a lot you can do

I treat everyone like they are going to kill me!! Its hard though isnt it, you go too quick on roundabouts you risk not being seen, you go too slow, you risk being hit by impatient drivers! Tis tough out there.

[T1berious]

See, I went for if I'm a luminous yellow missle, they'll wait the 5 seconds (if that!) for me to get off the round about before they ignite they're 320D's

[Rolls]

TheLemming said:

Always treat EVERYONE like they are going to try and kill you and you can't go far wrong.
Same with lorries and buses.....

Admittedly sometimes there's not a lot you can do

edited for you - all I really have to add!

[LotusMartin]

I'm no learner - but I hold my hands up, I've done something similar entering a roundabout, Mr 'Gimp' was in the blind spot of the piller. I barely entered the roundabour before my 2nd check spotted him - a little late though to stop his impending embolism - clearly he needed new underwear!

[otolith]

You have to expect the unexpected with learners. Especially if it isn't an instructor's car. The other day I was behind a learner turning left onto a dual carriageway. I'd been behind them for a while and wanted past. Once we were on the DC, I moved into the right hand lane to pass, at which point they swerved in front of me without signalling. Not malicious, they just intended turning right 3/4 of a mile down the road and had no awareness of other vehicles around them. I hope they are planning on getting some professional instruction before their test, they need to learn about use of mirrors and signals and fundamentals of lane discipline.

[T1berious]

Just want to add that the driver was under instruction and a liveried car (can't remember the company). So I think we can safely assume it was dual control.

Cheers,

T1b

[CaptainSlow]

Legally you'd have been in the right so the cost of your stay in hospital and any subsequent care would have been covered by their insurance. You could most likely have the moral high ground too. However, as most cyclists and motorcyclists know, it doesn't matter who is right and wrong when it's you getting hurt. You may wish to show a bit more caution on a public high way in future as it doesn't matter how well you ride you can't trust the actions of others.

[yellowjack]

CaptainSlow said:

Legally you'd have been in the right so the cost of your stay in hospital and any subsequent care would have been covered by their insurance. You could most likely have the moral high ground too. However, as most cyclists and motorcyclists know, it doesn't matter who is right and wrong when it's you getting hurt. You may wish to show a bit more caution on a public high way in future as it doesn't matter how well you ride you can't trust the actions of others.

It's all very well counselling people to show caution out on the road, but there comes a point when, in order to make any progress, you'll have to enter a roundabout. It'd be nice to think you could wait until it was clear in all directions before proceeding, but in reality how likely is that?

When I got hit, I was half way across a roundabout, there having been nothing from opposite me to give way to, and nothing immediately to my left to pull out on me. Then a van arrived from the left, and because I was paying more attention to what was potentially approaching from my 6 o'clock (the biggest potential danger on this particular 3-way roundabout) I didn't notice that the van had failed to spot me. One second later, and I'd have been clear. A couple of seconds sooner, it'd have gone down as a near miss. I got 'T' boned from my left, bounced off the front of the van, "Superman'd" through the air, and landed on my front. From there, I don't know what happened, as I was immobilised, initially face down, then on a spinal board, so all I got to see for the next hour(?) was a few pairs of shoes, and the sky/roof of the ambulance through a haze of opiates.

I'd like to think there might be something I should have done differently, but all I was doing was entering a roundabout, in a safe and controlled manner, having due regard for other traffic and the rules of the road (a priority system that has been in use since before I was born). These are rules that all safe drivers ought to be familiar with, and which, barring human error (failure to look, Mr Van-Driver) should preclude any conflict between road users, yet so many accidents occur at junctions of one type or another. Car to car, these are relatively minor, causing at worst large bills that insurers almost always pick up, but when a bicycle is involved, the result is far more serious.

So whilst I would say yes, caution around other vehicles is an admirable trait, there comes a point when you have to apply the "ride within the distance you can see to be clear AND can reasonably expect to remain clear" rule. I did. The van driver didn't. Yet it was me who suffered a broken shoulder blade and is still paying the price.

All I would say to another driver is "Have a good look before moving off. Then have another one, to pick up anything that might 'hide' in the blind spot behind your 'A' pillar". It won't cost you more than one second of your life. You've wasted more time watching adverts during an episode of Corrie than those extra looks will cost over an entire lifetime.

[CaptainSlow]

I don't disagree.

[Kell]

yellowjack said:

Some wise words

Well said.

[Vanya]

As did CaptainSlow.



Be safe out there guys.

[Daveyraveygravey]

I agree 100% with what Yellowjack said. My own personal problem is that on a push bike, roundabouts are magic. Ideally, the road I am approaching on is clear, I look behind and there is nothing there, I start to speed up, the entry from my right is clear and there is nothing coming from the entry opposite or on the roudnabout itself, and I can carve the shortest line through it as fast as I dare. Doesn't happen often enough though.

[DuckDuck]

T1berious said:

Fellow PHer's

I just wanted a common sense check as I'm lost and confused. At the weekend me and the Mrs were riding to the Gym (currently training for getting back into Triathalon but that's another thread).

So I'm approaching a round about at about 20 mph, check my right all clear, I hit the pistons as I like to minimise my TED at roundabouts. Learner on my left sees me, I'm looking her in the eye, she then pulls out. I'm having a WTF? moment as I'm centimeters away from getting hit, nothing I can do.

Somehow, the instructor, traffic gods, the drivers better sense intervenes and she stops. barely an inch from me.

My query is this:

Was the Instructor asleep, he's got dual control?
Where would I have stood legally in the event of being hit? I'm guessing the Learner is the driver so liable?

My next point is purely from a "hold up guv" moment, If a learner isn't being taught proper observation you can't really expect them to get that as they move along in life, are standards that bad? (could be isolated event and I accept that).

In addition I was dressed a luminous yellow gimp.

Anyone with info on legal stand point greatly appreciated, pant wetting aside no harm done just curious.

Cheers,

T1b

(reposted here)

Who was first onto the roundabout? if the learner was then as far as I know they have priority. The learner would have had to give way to traffic coming from the right only already on the roundabout.