A,. Darling and congestion charging
Discussion
They're at it again! GPS smart cards in avery car in the country, to track us all and use GPS to catch us speeding without even needing cameras!
I have faxed my MP again. I suggest you all do the same. This is the text of my fax:-
Dear Mr. Barron,
I'm sorry to have to bother you again, but I have been reading today about your colleague, Mr. Alistair Darling's, proposals to use GPS technology to track every car user in the United Kingdom. I would like you, on behalf of the general public of this nation, to ask Mr. Darling what he thinks the proposal would serve in terms of benefitting the public, whom I understand he is supposed to serve.
Motorists are not some cash cow to be milked for every penny that can be extracted. This is not a method, of "congestion charging", and Mr. Darling is a naive and presumptuous fool if he thinks the public of Britain are as stupid and gullible as he believes. This ridiculous, intrusive, and totalitarian suggestion, has been cooked up for two obvious purposes:-
1)Yet another stealth tax on people who use cars as a necessary means of transport, in the complete absence of any co-ordinated public transport policy, and in the face of a government hostile to the concept of freedom of movement of citizens, and paranoid about their inability to manipulate the population.
2) A foolproof method of taxing people by measuring their speed and issuing speeding fines without needing to bother the Police, without using speed cameras, etc.
It is also a policy, based on the needs of the south-east of England, and London in particular. I doubt it has a great deal of relevance for a Welsh farmer, a District Nurse in the Western Highlands of Scotland, or indeed the vast majority of people who live outside the M25. London is not Great Britain!!
Mr. Darling's statements to the effect that charging people to use roads at peak time, will reduce congestion, is such errant nonsense, as to be laughable. Does he really think that 24 million people can change their working patterns to suit his hare-brained schemes? Can we all just get out of our cars, jump on a bus/train, and arrive at work 20 minutes later, refreshed, warm, dry, and ready to work? Please! The transport system in this country is a national disgrace, and successive governments, both Labour and Conservative, have presided over a callous and scandalous policy of collective neglect for at least 30 years, to the point where the only way of getting about this country is to use a car.
Is it not about time that instead of trying to tinker with our basic citizen's rights, and use headline-grabbing, poorly thought out policy statements, is it not about time that your party, and my supposed public servants, started making some progress in producing a coherent strategy to solve the problem of public transport in this country?
It makes me incredibly angry, that your party, your colleagues in high office, treat the electors of this country as inconsequential bumpkins, and listen only to lunatic, fringe views, espoused by sychophantic acolytes.
I find it hard to believe that we have to suffer the rantings of people like Alistair Darling, well known from his days as a Lothian Councillor, for his anti-car attitudes. Why has a man with no balanced view of transport, been made minister for that Department? What the hell has happened to democracy, the will of the people, consulting the electorate? Your party is in the process of dismantling our democratic system, and I fear for the liberal future of this great nation. The control freaks currently in power are so far out of touch with reality, that I am frightened for what scheme they will come up with next. Are all you back- benchers really so scared of the whips, that you cannot stand up and say what you feel? Having met you, I find it hard to believe that you are of the same mind, since you retain a feel for ordinary people.
I apologise for this rather long-winded rant, but this announcement has made me both very angry, and very frightened. There seems to be no voice of reason at the top of the Government, and no inkling that common sense has any part in modern political thinking.
Where are the policies? Where are the intelligent ideas? Where are the people who can deliver coherent strategies for tackling the infrastructure problems? Mr. Bliar (not a mis-spelling) once suggested his government would raise standards with "joined-up thinking". Not only did that sound a childish phrase at the time, it seems that disjointed, reflex action is the true method of the current administration. As I'm sure you're aware, a reflex is a sharp, short-lived reaction to a stimulus, which does not require input from higher thought processes
Will you please pass a copy of this fax to Mr. Darling (not one of his underlings), and will you please try to help the boys in central office open their eyes. They are public servants - we are not theirs.
I have faxed my MP again. I suggest you all do the same. This is the text of my fax:-
Dear Mr. Barron,
I'm sorry to have to bother you again, but I have been reading today about your colleague, Mr. Alistair Darling's, proposals to use GPS technology to track every car user in the United Kingdom. I would like you, on behalf of the general public of this nation, to ask Mr. Darling what he thinks the proposal would serve in terms of benefitting the public, whom I understand he is supposed to serve.
Motorists are not some cash cow to be milked for every penny that can be extracted. This is not a method, of "congestion charging", and Mr. Darling is a naive and presumptuous fool if he thinks the public of Britain are as stupid and gullible as he believes. This ridiculous, intrusive, and totalitarian suggestion, has been cooked up for two obvious purposes:-
1)Yet another stealth tax on people who use cars as a necessary means of transport, in the complete absence of any co-ordinated public transport policy, and in the face of a government hostile to the concept of freedom of movement of citizens, and paranoid about their inability to manipulate the population.
2) A foolproof method of taxing people by measuring their speed and issuing speeding fines without needing to bother the Police, without using speed cameras, etc.
It is also a policy, based on the needs of the south-east of England, and London in particular. I doubt it has a great deal of relevance for a Welsh farmer, a District Nurse in the Western Highlands of Scotland, or indeed the vast majority of people who live outside the M25. London is not Great Britain!!
Mr. Darling's statements to the effect that charging people to use roads at peak time, will reduce congestion, is such errant nonsense, as to be laughable. Does he really think that 24 million people can change their working patterns to suit his hare-brained schemes? Can we all just get out of our cars, jump on a bus/train, and arrive at work 20 minutes later, refreshed, warm, dry, and ready to work? Please! The transport system in this country is a national disgrace, and successive governments, both Labour and Conservative, have presided over a callous and scandalous policy of collective neglect for at least 30 years, to the point where the only way of getting about this country is to use a car.
Is it not about time that instead of trying to tinker with our basic citizen's rights, and use headline-grabbing, poorly thought out policy statements, is it not about time that your party, and my supposed public servants, started making some progress in producing a coherent strategy to solve the problem of public transport in this country?
It makes me incredibly angry, that your party, your colleagues in high office, treat the electors of this country as inconsequential bumpkins, and listen only to lunatic, fringe views, espoused by sychophantic acolytes.
I find it hard to believe that we have to suffer the rantings of people like Alistair Darling, well known from his days as a Lothian Councillor, for his anti-car attitudes. Why has a man with no balanced view of transport, been made minister for that Department? What the hell has happened to democracy, the will of the people, consulting the electorate? Your party is in the process of dismantling our democratic system, and I fear for the liberal future of this great nation. The control freaks currently in power are so far out of touch with reality, that I am frightened for what scheme they will come up with next. Are all you back- benchers really so scared of the whips, that you cannot stand up and say what you feel? Having met you, I find it hard to believe that you are of the same mind, since you retain a feel for ordinary people.
I apologise for this rather long-winded rant, but this announcement has made me both very angry, and very frightened. There seems to be no voice of reason at the top of the Government, and no inkling that common sense has any part in modern political thinking.
Where are the policies? Where are the intelligent ideas? Where are the people who can deliver coherent strategies for tackling the infrastructure problems? Mr. Bliar (not a mis-spelling) once suggested his government would raise standards with "joined-up thinking". Not only did that sound a childish phrase at the time, it seems that disjointed, reflex action is the true method of the current administration. As I'm sure you're aware, a reflex is a sharp, short-lived reaction to a stimulus, which does not require input from higher thought processes
Will you please pass a copy of this fax to Mr. Darling (not one of his underlings), and will you please try to help the boys in central office open their eyes. They are public servants - we are not theirs.
Slightly off topic but...
I have an Origion Blue i and a Normal GPS.
Now the blue i reads pretty much the same as the car speedo between 30 and 100 mph however the other GPS reads less than both (varies depending on speed from about 2-4 mph). Now I can understand the car speedo being slightly out but the two GPS devices giving different readings??? Can anyone make head or tail of this.
Closer to the topic - I thought the American goverment were running the GPS satelites at huge loss and were think of canning them - any truth to this - it really make a mocoery of Darling's scheme then....
I have an Origion Blue i and a Normal GPS.
Now the blue i reads pretty much the same as the car speedo between 30 and 100 mph however the other GPS reads less than both (varies depending on speed from about 2-4 mph). Now I can understand the car speedo being slightly out but the two GPS devices giving different readings??? Can anyone make head or tail of this.
Closer to the topic - I thought the American goverment were running the GPS satelites at huge loss and were think of canning them - any truth to this - it really make a mocoery of Darling's scheme then....
I don't think we have to worry too much, if the implementation process of the Air Traffic Control system that tracks only 2 million flights a year is anything to go by - a system capable of tracking 24 million cars all the time, every day, to produce accurate billing will take years to implement, and the budget will be a national scandal!
Luckily for us the governments are terrible at implementing any sort of technology, because they can't help fiddling and extending the scope...turning them into projects that will never be completed...
>> Edited by Windsorphil on Monday 22 July 10:03
Luckily for us the governments are terrible at implementing any sort of technology, because they can't help fiddling and extending the scope...turning them into projects that will never be completed...
>> Edited by Windsorphil on Monday 22 July 10:03
Don't worry it's just scaremongering from a numpty bycicle rider! (Who will not be there after the next election latest!) Any GPS system won't work when the aerial's damaged /blanked off so how the hell do they expect 24million motorists to comply with such Orwellian heavy handed intrusion into their private spheres? AS the Aerials can get damaged at every carwash,,, oh dear what a pity.....
Why do they go out of their way to look stupid in public? Remember Blair and his on-the-spot fine for all scroats .. who will obviously all be carrying their cashpoint cards? Two minutes of analysis by anyone who thinks straight would show that these ideas are utterly impractical (regardless of whether they were or weren't desireable) ... so what should we conclude about these people and their mental faculties?
quote:I very much doubt it. The Americans aren't running GPS as a commercial venture - its a military system that they happen to let the rest of the world use.
I thought the American goverment were running the GPS satelites at huge loss and were think of canning them - any truth to this
Besides, the Eurpoeans are already working on an alternative system called Gallileo which will be far superior to the American's GPS, and the Americans are trying to knobble it as they want the monopoly on global positioning.
These people are in a different world.
Listened to a professor on Radio 2 this morning blathering on about this. Apparently, this is intended to be introduced about 2010, by which time he reckoned the majority of cars would have been fitted with the required technology anyway on a voluntary basis - it the Trafficmaster type GPS units.
Personally I have not been in a single car fitted with this. For this to have filtered down through the second hand market such that a majority of second hand cars have it fitted in 7 years time it will have to be standard fitment in pretty well the most basic model in just 2 years. Can you see the £4000 Daewoo Matiz being flogged in Macro (yes really) being fitted with what seems currently to be a £1000 cost option in just 2 years time?
I'd have two of what he's been having, but I'm afraid it might be permanently damaging.
Listened to a professor on Radio 2 this morning blathering on about this. Apparently, this is intended to be introduced about 2010, by which time he reckoned the majority of cars would have been fitted with the required technology anyway on a voluntary basis - it the Trafficmaster type GPS units.
Personally I have not been in a single car fitted with this. For this to have filtered down through the second hand market such that a majority of second hand cars have it fitted in 7 years time it will have to be standard fitment in pretty well the most basic model in just 2 years. Can you see the £4000 Daewoo Matiz being flogged in Macro (yes really) being fitted with what seems currently to be a £1000 cost option in just 2 years time?
I'd have two of what he's been having, but I'm afraid it might be permanently damaging.
Not sure why you say Galileo will be far superior to GPS. If you read the Euro blurb that proposed the project, the only argument they can come up with to justify spending 3.5 billion euros is "the Yanks and the Russians have got one, so we need one too".
This isn't a totally stupid point, but it ain't no technical revolution.
This isn't a totally stupid point, but it ain't no technical revolution.
quote:
Not sure why you say Galileo will be far superior to GPS. If you read the Euro blurb that proposed the project, the only argument they can come up with to justify spending 3.5 billion euros is "the Yanks and the Russians have got one, so we need one too".
This isn't a totally stupid point, but it ain't no technical revolution.
And if the typical Brussels F*ckup is applied to it, It'll mean we all will be driving around with a sundial on our roof!!!
Nubbin,
One of, if not THE best response to Tony's Trotskyites yet.
The voice of millions of thoroughly hacked off motorists, summed up. Wonderful, wonderful stuff!
Do you think this kind of letter EVER gets to the top?
I was going to start a thread on this subject but you've said it all.
May I just add my hope that Mr.Darling falls victim to a bizzare gardening accident this weekend...
>> Edited by derestrictor on Monday 22 July 19:24
One of, if not THE best response to Tony's Trotskyites yet.
The voice of millions of thoroughly hacked off motorists, summed up. Wonderful, wonderful stuff!
Do you think this kind of letter EVER gets to the top?
I was going to start a thread on this subject but you've said it all.
May I just add my hope that Mr.Darling falls victim to a bizzare gardening accident this weekend...
>> Edited by derestrictor on Monday 22 July 19:24
An image of a racing pidgeon with my GPS smart card fitted to its leg is beginning to form
Thanks for the vote, derestrictor!! It isn't really the idea that worries me, it's the attitude behind it. It is obviously pie, rather than eye-in-the-sky, (mmmm, Ted, pie!!), but it is so loony to even contemplate it, that it beggars belief. And then, to announce it as a realistic intention, means we are considered to be superflous to government thinking, and the nutter control freaks have completely lost it, and feel that their huge parliamentary majority is a mandate for every half-baked extremist idea thay can come up with. It must be fantastic to be a professional lobbyist with this bunch in power - just come up with the daftest scheme you can, and get down there and you'll have a mutual arse-licking session with cabinet ministers in no time! Bunch of self-serving cretins. They'd be ashamed of themselves if they had half a brain to reason with!!
I'll say one thing - I sent a fax about speed cameras to Mr. Barron, a few weeks ago, and he has passed it on to some junior minister in the transport dept. I hope to get a reply at some point. Mr. Barron is old-school labour (not old labour) and is a very pleasant and hard-working grass roots M.P.
>> Edited by nubbin on Monday 22 July 17:41
I'll say one thing - I sent a fax about speed cameras to Mr. Barron, a few weeks ago, and he has passed it on to some junior minister in the transport dept. I hope to get a reply at some point. Mr. Barron is old-school labour (not old labour) and is a very pleasant and hard-working grass roots M.P.
>> Edited by nubbin on Monday 22 July 17:41
quote:Hmm. Well, having seen the specs and worked on the preliminary simulations and had to write code to the accuracy of the the projected centimetre-level resolution, if its half as good as the specs / reqs suggest then it will knock GPS into a cocked hat. But then again, since no satellites have been lauched yet then you could be right and it could be just a pile of pants.
Not sure why you say Galileo will be far superior to GPS. If you read the Euro blurb that proposed the project, the only argument they can come up with to justify spending 3.5 billion euros is "the Yanks and the Russians have got one, so we need one too".
This isn't a totally stupid point, but it ain't no technical revolution.
Err, sorry if this has already been covered, but the GPS system is a triangluation positioning service. I.e. the signals come from space (satelites) and the rather expensive equipment on the ground / air / water triangulates the signals to come up with a grid reference. That can then be mapped onto a map etc. Now, this isnt actually rocket science any more - though getting them up there was.
How the hell are they going to charge for this? They cant track from space as the signal is ONE WAY - from space to earth. Therefore you must have processing power in the GPS device in the first place. Now, some simple maths :
1) A GPS system accurate enough to be useful - £100.00
2) A hardened designed box for rugged use - £100.00 (usually double kit cost)
3) Effective installation - £50.00 (as in putting it in properly)
4) Data collection system for storage of time and distance - £200.00 (got to store upto a month really and some drivers do 4000 miles a month!)
So we are now running at a cost of around £450.00 per car. Now there is something like 20 million cars in the UK. So the running total is something like £9Bn.
And considering that London congestion charging infrastructure is supposed to be betweek £200M - £400M then we are looking for the payment / collection system to be another £1bn!
So a total of around £10bn to charge us to use the same roads that we pay £160.00 a year to use. Correct me if I am totally wrong, but fcuk off, no fcuking way. And if they spent the £10bn on the roads, rail, air and bus transport then we wouldnt need it anyway.
Bloody chauffeured MPs - bet they cant remember the last time they drove...
Monkey.
Paul
How the hell are they going to charge for this? They cant track from space as the signal is ONE WAY - from space to earth. Therefore you must have processing power in the GPS device in the first place. Now, some simple maths :
1) A GPS system accurate enough to be useful - £100.00
2) A hardened designed box for rugged use - £100.00 (usually double kit cost)
3) Effective installation - £50.00 (as in putting it in properly)
4) Data collection system for storage of time and distance - £200.00 (got to store upto a month really and some drivers do 4000 miles a month!)
So we are now running at a cost of around £450.00 per car. Now there is something like 20 million cars in the UK. So the running total is something like £9Bn.
And considering that London congestion charging infrastructure is supposed to be betweek £200M - £400M then we are looking for the payment / collection system to be another £1bn!
So a total of around £10bn to charge us to use the same roads that we pay £160.00 a year to use. Correct me if I am totally wrong, but fcuk off, no fcuking way. And if they spent the £10bn on the roads, rail, air and bus transport then we wouldnt need it anyway.
Bloody chauffeured MPs - bet they cant remember the last time they drove...
Monkey.
Paul
And I didnt mention those rather natty Renaults that some 1000's of people own with the anti reflective screens. GPS is so weak that it doesnt penetrate the mesh in them. Therefore how does Darling plan to get around that? I know lets ban all Renault drivers from being in the UK - cant drive the cars as you cant be taxed for using them - another reason why this country is run by a bunch of monkeys.
Monster Raving Loony party for me - at least they are mad and admit to it.
Cheers,
Paul
Monster Raving Loony party for me - at least they are mad and admit to it.
Cheers,
Paul
quote:
quote:
Not sure why you say Galileo will be far superior to GPS. If you read the Euro blurb that proposed the project, the only argument they can come up with to justify spending 3.5 billion euros is "the Yanks and the Russians have got one, so we need one too".
This isn't a totally stupid point, but it ain't no technical revolution.
And if the typical Brussels F*ckup is applied to it, It'll mean we all will be driving around with a sundial on our roof!!!
After Brussels it will need a caravan to tow the kit in. Volvo Estate anyone
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