Are modern cars too fast for fun?
Discussion
OK, I may have broken the PHers rule of speed at all costs, but does anyone else agree that most modern cars are so inert, over-assisted and, dare I say it, too fast, to 'enjoy' legally, to the point where you have to push them so hard to enjoy them they suddenly seem pointless.
Just looking at some of the old sports cars - MG Midget, Austin-Healey Sprite, Triumph Spitfire and so on - all could be outperformed easily by most new shopping trolleys, but, even below the limit, they're all fun to drive. Even old hot hatches like the Golf GTi MKI were all about zippy acceleration rather than pointless bhp figures and 150mph top speeds, as they are today.
And, more to the point, are there any modern sporty cars that are fully involving below the limit any more, or do we all have to look forward to a future of numb boredom in a world where, even if you have a sporty car, you can never drive it in a sporty way, and it just becomes a magnet for 'poser' accusations.
Just looking at some of the old sports cars - MG Midget, Austin-Healey Sprite, Triumph Spitfire and so on - all could be outperformed easily by most new shopping trolleys, but, even below the limit, they're all fun to drive. Even old hot hatches like the Golf GTi MKI were all about zippy acceleration rather than pointless bhp figures and 150mph top speeds, as they are today.
And, more to the point, are there any modern sporty cars that are fully involving below the limit any more, or do we all have to look forward to a future of numb boredom in a world where, even if you have a sporty car, you can never drive it in a sporty way, and it just becomes a magnet for 'poser' accusations.
Modern cars are highly accomplished in transporting driver and passengers, safely, effortlessly and quickly in high levels of comfort.
Not everyone wants to be highly involved in driving their vehicle all the time.
That's why I do most of my driving with family in a 5 Series BMW and my hooning in a 911 Porsche.
Horses for courses. What's the problem?
pp
Not everyone wants to be highly involved in driving their vehicle all the time.
That's why I do most of my driving with family in a 5 Series BMW and my hooning in a 911 Porsche.
Horses for courses. What's the problem?
pp
The Elise has too much grip imho. With those old cars you could take a corner sideways nice and slowly and breakaway was much more progressive.
Still have memories of my friends first car when we were at school. Some kind of VW caravell or something. It went sideways beautifully with very little provocation, but it didn't want to spin.
Modern cars with their fat tyres have very small slip angles, so that balance point is much harder to ride and you need to be going antisocially fast to find it in the first place.
>> Edited by DanH on Saturday 27th November 16:05
v8thunder said:
Not everyone wants to be highly involved in driving their vehicle all the time.
I know, but I was talking about sports cars
And yes, the British kit car market serves this purpose, I just wish it was more popular, a la '50s specials movement.
Yes, good point. It's difficult to fully exercise a 150mph vehicle that can generate approaching 1g lateral acceleration on a public road.
As somebody else stated some of the older cars were just as enjoyable as you could easily drive them at the limit. I have to satisfy myself with getting some level of gratification by driving sedately and ejoying some of the tactile and aural (I said aural) pleasures that a 911 can provide. IMO that's why a car with character (rather than just a fast one) is important.
pp
This is something I've been thinking about, too. When magazine journos talk authoritatively about the difference between an Audi RS6 and a BMW M5 "on the limit" I sometimes wonder if they drive the same roads as me. If you ever reach the limit in either of those you're going to be travelling at truly silly speeds and probably - to borrow from Martin Brundle - 'heading straight to the scene of an accident'.
I love going quickly and see every roundabout in MK as a challenge (especially late at night), but if I was trying to make an M5 dance through them I'd be going far too quickly for my own good.
My ex has a 1.4 Mk3 Golf with soft suspension and little skinny tyres - but it's enormous fun to drive, especially in the rain. Flick it into roundabouts at relatively modest speeds, unsettle the rear and slither through with Nuvalari-style wheel inputs and a huge grin.
I love going quickly and see every roundabout in MK as a challenge (especially late at night), but if I was trying to make an M5 dance through them I'd be going far too quickly for my own good.
My ex has a 1.4 Mk3 Golf with soft suspension and little skinny tyres - but it's enormous fun to drive, especially in the rain. Flick it into roundabouts at relatively modest speeds, unsettle the rear and slither through with Nuvalari-style wheel inputs and a huge grin.
I wondered this, mainly because I drive a 1.2-litre Fiat Punto that's typically Italian fun in the twisties, but hopeless on the motorway. IMO 2-3 litres, nominally aspirated, is perfect for some kind of fun in all situations, but these German supersaloons just leave me cold - huge engine, ordinary looks, and ordinary performance and noise, until you find you get to a usual speed and it just keeps accelerating. The Americans can, at least, get lairy handling and low-speed noise right.
Thinking about it - this is why I've never owned a super saloon be it Q car (M3/5) or pseudo rally car (Evo/Impreza). They go faster than lesser models in the same range but the smaller engine cars are petty able anyway. It's why convertibles are so popular; you don't have to go fast to have fun. And it's why "launch control" is IMHO so utterly pointless.
I think it was James Hunt, who when asked what was his favorite machine to drive on the roads, answered...a Ford Transit! Because to enjoy driving a car(van),you had to reach the extent of its abilities and in a transit, that was 40mph round a bend, so you could enjoy its handling limits pretty much all the time.
Funny a thread like this should arise.
Just the other day I took my Mums Ford KA for a spin and amazed myself at just how much 'fun' I had driving it.
I agree that the more modern sports cars are just so capable, they can be pretty boring unless you're doing really extreme speeds which isnt really safe on the roads.
After the drive in the KA I was trying to convince myself that a Ford KA can't possibly be more 'fun' that a 355, but the reality was that I actually enjoyed that drive much more than I would have done if I'd taken the Ferrari.
There seems to be something about wrestling a car around corners in a way that it wasnt designed for that makes it so much fun to do!
Just the other day I took my Mums Ford KA for a spin and amazed myself at just how much 'fun' I had driving it.
I agree that the more modern sports cars are just so capable, they can be pretty boring unless you're doing really extreme speeds which isnt really safe on the roads.
After the drive in the KA I was trying to convince myself that a Ford KA can't possibly be more 'fun' that a 355, but the reality was that I actually enjoyed that drive much more than I would have done if I'd taken the Ferrari.
There seems to be something about wrestling a car around corners in a way that it wasnt designed for that makes it so much fun to do!
v8thunder said:
It was James Hunt but he was talking about his Austin A35 van.
It was indeed so it sounds like we're looking for a cross between an Elise and an A35. Caterham!
[edit].... but on reflection I wouldn't choose to go that fast in a wheel-barrow.
>> Edited by 5USA on Saturday 27th November 16:34
I loved my old Frogeye. Could drift it beautifully at legal speeds, and no one would know you were actually on the limit. Same with some of the more mundane Minis and the like. Nobody knew you were going flat out but you'd be having a ball just the same.
But then 300+ on the dial of a 996 turbo is fun as well.
Big fat sticky tyres kill the real fun in most modern cars, with econo boxes sporting rubber that would have been seen as overkil on a 911 RS not too long ago..
But then 300+ on the dial of a 996 turbo is fun as well.
Big fat sticky tyres kill the real fun in most modern cars, with econo boxes sporting rubber that would have been seen as overkil on a 911 RS not too long ago..
Talking of unlikely cars for racing drivers, you'll notice that just about every F1 driver owns a Fiat 500, for the obvious reason that, when driven in a sporting style, it's always on its limit. Same goes for 2CVs - people knock them for being slow, but of all the cars you can drive, it's probably the one that feels the fastest.
DanH said:Why is going sideways considered the paragon of fun, and why is it that in conventional terms it seems to be what we should strive for?
The Elise has too much grip imho. With those old cars you could take a corner sideways nice and slowly and breakaway was much more progressive.
I personally would much rather go round a tight corner at a blistering pace with full grip, and a progressive breakaway just to warn me that I'm on the limit. Of course, as far as I'm concerned, the further away the limit the better. If they made a car that defied the laws of physics and never oversteered I'd be the first one in it.
The more grip the better - bring on 'em fat tyres and low centres of gravity.
Once again I guess it's a case of horses for courses.
Though the Elise is pretty well known for sweet sliding with not much provocation...
D
hammerwerfer said:The big rear Goodyears on my Esprit looked like road rollers back then. The one still hanging under a tree as our garden swing looks like a standard tyre size now. Brings back happy memories when I mow the grass though...
Big fat sticky tyres kill the real fun in most modern cars, with econo boxes sporting rubber that would have been seen as overkill on a 911 RS not too long ago..
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