VO2 Threshold / Wattage test results - what do you reckon?
Discussion
Hi,
I started a thread (link at the bottom) in the 'health forum' a few months ago but think Pedal Powered is probably a bit more suitable. Long story short is that I'm 29 and had a bit of a lifestyle change just over a year ago. I knocked both alcohol and cigarettes out completely on Xmas day 2013, and just over a year on I haven't touched either since. My diet is also much better than it was. Whilst I've always had a pretty average level of fitness, even when I drank and smoked, I knew I was nowhere near where I wanted to be.
I've been mountain biking on and off for years now but it's never been ideal at building a base level of fitness, which was something I wanted to improve on. So I started entering 10Ks, half marathons, endurance mountain bike races, Tough Mudders etc all around mid way through last year, as well as a fair bit of treadmill running and mountain biking at weekends.
The problem was that my training wasn't focused, a bit misguided and not helping greatly with my fitness. I'd worked with the incorrect mentality that if I was knackered at the end of a session then it'd done some good.
In October of last year I set myself the challenge of an Ironman 70.3, which I've entered and takes part in June of this year. Last October I sorted out a coach who's a lot of credibility (ex X-Terra champ etc etc) who's been coaching for a long time, in order to help me train. I did a V02 max test around 14 weeks ago, which is when the training began, and had another one today.
What I'm really looking for are some comments on the results and progress. From reading this forum I can see a fair few on here are evidently very fit and capable. So...
Age: 29
Height: 6ft
Weight now: 11st 4lb
Weight before: 12st alb
VO2 max now: 56
VO2 max before: 53
Max HR: 184 - no real movement in this
Aerobic threshold: 150 bpm - no real movement in this
Power at threshold now: 240 Watts
Power at threshold before: 200 Watts
I'm still a bit confused over the power thing though. My understanding is that essentially now I can travel faster than before at the same level of effort. However, relative to my weight, is that result good?
They were really impressed by this especially with training being limited by the winter months since the last test and most of the bike work having been on a turbo due to weather and dark evenings!! Their feedback was that I should definitely give myself a pat on the back given all of this and results are about as good as anyone could have hoped for.
The only competitive event I've done since I started the training was a duathlon at Eton Dorney a few weeks ago - 3 mile run, 11.5 mile bike, 3 mile run - time of 1h 27m. I finished 50th from 110 entrants. Transition times were crap, but on the plus side I did the bike stage in 36 minutes which was in the top third of the 110 entrants.
Anyhow, any general thoughts are opinions would be great.
Cheers,
ps. apologies for the thread title, appreciate it's a bit mixed up (i.e. not a VO2 threshold test since that would make no sense!)
I started a thread (link at the bottom) in the 'health forum' a few months ago but think Pedal Powered is probably a bit more suitable. Long story short is that I'm 29 and had a bit of a lifestyle change just over a year ago. I knocked both alcohol and cigarettes out completely on Xmas day 2013, and just over a year on I haven't touched either since. My diet is also much better than it was. Whilst I've always had a pretty average level of fitness, even when I drank and smoked, I knew I was nowhere near where I wanted to be.
I've been mountain biking on and off for years now but it's never been ideal at building a base level of fitness, which was something I wanted to improve on. So I started entering 10Ks, half marathons, endurance mountain bike races, Tough Mudders etc all around mid way through last year, as well as a fair bit of treadmill running and mountain biking at weekends.
The problem was that my training wasn't focused, a bit misguided and not helping greatly with my fitness. I'd worked with the incorrect mentality that if I was knackered at the end of a session then it'd done some good.
In October of last year I set myself the challenge of an Ironman 70.3, which I've entered and takes part in June of this year. Last October I sorted out a coach who's a lot of credibility (ex X-Terra champ etc etc) who's been coaching for a long time, in order to help me train. I did a V02 max test around 14 weeks ago, which is when the training began, and had another one today.
What I'm really looking for are some comments on the results and progress. From reading this forum I can see a fair few on here are evidently very fit and capable. So...
Age: 29
Height: 6ft
Weight now: 11st 4lb
Weight before: 12st alb
VO2 max now: 56
VO2 max before: 53
Max HR: 184 - no real movement in this
Aerobic threshold: 150 bpm - no real movement in this
Power at threshold now: 240 Watts
Power at threshold before: 200 Watts
I'm still a bit confused over the power thing though. My understanding is that essentially now I can travel faster than before at the same level of effort. However, relative to my weight, is that result good?
They were really impressed by this especially with training being limited by the winter months since the last test and most of the bike work having been on a turbo due to weather and dark evenings!! Their feedback was that I should definitely give myself a pat on the back given all of this and results are about as good as anyone could have hoped for.
The only competitive event I've done since I started the training was a duathlon at Eton Dorney a few weeks ago - 3 mile run, 11.5 mile bike, 3 mile run - time of 1h 27m. I finished 50th from 110 entrants. Transition times were crap, but on the plus side I did the bike stage in 36 minutes which was in the top third of the 110 entrants.
Anyhow, any general thoughts are opinions would be great.
Cheers,
ps. apologies for the thread title, appreciate it's a bit mixed up (i.e. not a VO2 threshold test since that would make no sense!)
Edited by thenortherner on Saturday 15th February 17:30
No idea about VO2 results but your FTP is 3.4 W/kg (assuming your 'threshold power' of 240 W is for a 60 minute period). That's a decent level - probably about average for a Sunday club rider.
What sort of riding and turbo sessions do you do? You should be able to increase your FTP with appropriate training. I have no idea how important the bike leg is in triathlon though...isn't the swim/run more important?
What sort of riding and turbo sessions do you do? You should be able to increase your FTP with appropriate training. I have no idea how important the bike leg is in triathlon though...isn't the swim/run more important?
I can't comment on the VO2 as I've no idea about it and can't really comment on the run/swim part of the triathlon but from a cycling perspective the power increase combined with the weight loss is good going.
From a MTB perspective, my FTP is 2.8 and I was ahead of you at the Torq 12:12 last year, there's a guy who finished the Vets 12h solo in 8th place and his FTP is only 2.95 so yours being at 3.3 is pretty good in comparison.
Obviously that's not a perfect comparison as some people race better over longer distances than others but it still gives you an idea of how much you've improved.
From a MTB perspective, my FTP is 2.8 and I was ahead of you at the Torq 12:12 last year, there's a guy who finished the Vets 12h solo in 8th place and his FTP is only 2.95 so yours being at 3.3 is pretty good in comparison.
Obviously that's not a perfect comparison as some people race better over longer distances than others but it still gives you an idea of how much you've improved.
Thanks guys.
Re. the swim and the run, they're both important. However, the bike is the main event really - it's where I'll be spending most of my time during the race and hopefully where I'll be making up a little bit of time. From what the guy said today, the plan should continue to have a little bit of bias towards the bike as gains made here will also translate to running better, but not vice versa. I've done a fair few half marathons so I'm relatively comfortable with the run. Another comment made by the guy doing the test today is that he's known plenty of people complete a full distance Ironman never running more than 10 miles during training. Running makes up around 25% of my current training.
The turbo sessions are varied. The problem is the plan the coach writes aren't really specifically meant for the turbo, they're meant for the road, but he does concede the weather has been shocking recently. This evening was 1 hour at a steady 150 bpm for example. Sometimes the plans are focused around power, sometimes around base. A chunk of the last month has been around 3-5 mins at L2 then 15 second bursts of 'speeders' - and repeat for an hour.
I'm from a mountain bike background and I've only had the road bike since November. Due to weather, dark evenings and work commitments over Xmas I've probably only used it on the road around 10 times. I rode an 80 mile loop of the Isle of Wight a couple of weeks ago and averaged a 145 HR and felt absolutely fine. As the weather gets better I'll be getting out on the road a lot more and hopefully see greater gains, the turbo is good but it's no substitute.
Re. Torq in your sleep 12 hour solo - that was my first ever mountain bike race I think! Although it wasn't so much my fitness that let me down, despite the fact it wasn't at a great standard, I still finished in a reasonably respectable position, especially since I hadn't done any real or focused training.
It was more the horrid lower back pain which caused me to take a break after every lap later in the day. A super stiff carbon hardtail with 100mm of travel and tyres which were far too inflated didn't help the comfort side of things. Nor did my cluelessness when it came to nutrition.
I'll probably do this year's event too and at least now I've got something to measure and benchmark my progress since then against.
Re. the swim and the run, they're both important. However, the bike is the main event really - it's where I'll be spending most of my time during the race and hopefully where I'll be making up a little bit of time. From what the guy said today, the plan should continue to have a little bit of bias towards the bike as gains made here will also translate to running better, but not vice versa. I've done a fair few half marathons so I'm relatively comfortable with the run. Another comment made by the guy doing the test today is that he's known plenty of people complete a full distance Ironman never running more than 10 miles during training. Running makes up around 25% of my current training.
The turbo sessions are varied. The problem is the plan the coach writes aren't really specifically meant for the turbo, they're meant for the road, but he does concede the weather has been shocking recently. This evening was 1 hour at a steady 150 bpm for example. Sometimes the plans are focused around power, sometimes around base. A chunk of the last month has been around 3-5 mins at L2 then 15 second bursts of 'speeders' - and repeat for an hour.
I'm from a mountain bike background and I've only had the road bike since November. Due to weather, dark evenings and work commitments over Xmas I've probably only used it on the road around 10 times. I rode an 80 mile loop of the Isle of Wight a couple of weeks ago and averaged a 145 HR and felt absolutely fine. As the weather gets better I'll be getting out on the road a lot more and hopefully see greater gains, the turbo is good but it's no substitute.
Re. Torq in your sleep 12 hour solo - that was my first ever mountain bike race I think! Although it wasn't so much my fitness that let me down, despite the fact it wasn't at a great standard, I still finished in a reasonably respectable position, especially since I hadn't done any real or focused training.
It was more the horrid lower back pain which caused me to take a break after every lap later in the day. A super stiff carbon hardtail with 100mm of travel and tyres which were far too inflated didn't help the comfort side of things. Nor did my cluelessness when it came to nutrition.
I'll probably do this year's event too and at least now I've got something to measure and benchmark my progress since then against.
As the chap above said, Sunday club rider is about right.
What would make most difference to you is getting aero dynamic on your bike. W/kg is a term that really doesn't matter for most cyclists/cycling in the UK, it's branded about because when you're climbing a 20km mountain then it's a huge factor and the pros obviously win/lose races on those climbs. On Box Hill 1kg for example costs you 3 seconds, I.e. - f
k all. You having the most power possible and being as aero as possible wins. W/kg makes bugger all difference on the flat.
Anyways, there is a fair chance you can improve from here, vo2 max again is a number that may mean a little but your efficiency at vo2 max is more important than the absolute figure.
11 miles on the flat in 36 mins is slow so the good news is that you should be able to take massive chunks off that of you train properly!
What would make most difference to you is getting aero dynamic on your bike. W/kg is a term that really doesn't matter for most cyclists/cycling in the UK, it's branded about because when you're climbing a 20km mountain then it's a huge factor and the pros obviously win/lose races on those climbs. On Box Hill 1kg for example costs you 3 seconds, I.e. - f
k all. You having the most power possible and being as aero as possible wins. W/kg makes bugger all difference on the flat. Anyways, there is a fair chance you can improve from here, vo2 max again is a number that may mean a little but your efficiency at vo2 max is more important than the absolute figure.
11 miles on the flat in 36 mins is slow so the good news is that you should be able to take massive chunks off that of you train properly!
Cheers.
There's more in me, absolutely. I'm far from at a level I'm happy with, but encouraged at least by the improvement over the past few months. Other than aero positioning etc, what would be your suggestion on improving? And could you detail a little more on efficiency at VO2 max? Is what you're saying that I need to get my AT threshold to the highest possible percent of VO2 max?
Re. the bike time - the winds were horrendous, not that I'm making excuses. There's still room for improvement.
Results of the race are as per the link below. There are guys in the overall top 20 and well within the top 30 with slower times than mine - and a fair few of them had aero bikes, skin suits, aero helmets! Given this, I didn't that I was 'that' slow.
There's more in me, absolutely. I'm far from at a level I'm happy with, but encouraged at least by the improvement over the past few months. Other than aero positioning etc, what would be your suggestion on improving? And could you detail a little more on efficiency at VO2 max? Is what you're saying that I need to get my AT threshold to the highest possible percent of VO2 max?
Re. the bike time - the winds were horrendous, not that I'm making excuses. There's still room for improvement.
Results of the race are as per the link below. There are guys in the overall top 20 and well within the top 30 with slower times than mine - and a fair few of them had aero bikes, skin suits, aero helmets! Given this, I didn't that I was 'that' slow.
Today was the first day of decent weather for a long time and the first time off the turbo for a couple of weeks. I thought I'd do a direct comparison of the results of a route I did at the end of November, when my training was just starting out, Vs today. I guess the results show in practice the gains I've made the the feedback I got from the VO2 test.
I'm pleased with the results. Not exactly a flat route, 44 miles and 1800 ft of climbing.
I'm pleased with the results. Not exactly a flat route, 44 miles and 1800 ft of climbing.
thenortherner said:
Cheers.
There's more in me, absolutely. I'm far from at a level I'm happy with, but encouraged at least by the improvement over the past few months. Other than aero positioning etc, what would be your suggestion on improving? And could you detail a little more on efficiency at VO2 max? Is what you're saying that I need to get my AT threshold to the highest possible percent of VO2 max?
Re. the bike time - the winds were horrendous, not that I'm making excuses. There's still room for improvement.
Results of the race are as per the link below. There are guys in the overall top 20 and well within the top 30 with slower times than mine - and a fair few of them had aero bikes, skin suits, aero helmets! Given this, I didn't that I was 'that' slow.
Have a little look around, Andrew Coggan, Alex Simmons, Hunter Allen all have spoken much on this subject. Essentially you should find vast improvements by riding harder, perhaps go out for an hour and ride as hard as you can, at this early stage you'll make big gains if you push yourself comfort wise. Is imagine you'll gain more through hard short rides or even intervals than you would by doing long steady rides. There's more in me, absolutely. I'm far from at a level I'm happy with, but encouraged at least by the improvement over the past few months. Other than aero positioning etc, what would be your suggestion on improving? And could you detail a little more on efficiency at VO2 max? Is what you're saying that I need to get my AT threshold to the highest possible percent of VO2 max?
Re. the bike time - the winds were horrendous, not that I'm making excuses. There's still room for improvement.
Results of the race are as per the link below. There are guys in the overall top 20 and well within the top 30 with slower times than mine - and a fair few of them had aero bikes, skin suits, aero helmets! Given this, I didn't that I was 'that' slow.
The standard of riding at your average triathlon is not the best so gauge yourself against yourself rather than them if you can. A good club time trialist will be doing 10 miles in under 23 mins on most courses.
The bloke above was correct in that triathlon is a runners game, if you're a poor runner you'll never be a good triathlete really (unless you're outstanding on the bike).
Not much to add on a lot of this, except; VO2max isn't really relevant to middle distance tri. Your threshold is far more important - you'll need to be below threshold over the course of the race, so the higher the threshold, the better you'll go.
My understanding is that threshold is 'easily' trainable; VO2max is unlikely to move a lot, and HRmax really doesn't change/respond to training.
My understanding is that threshold is 'easily' trainable; VO2max is unlikely to move a lot, and HRmax really doesn't change/respond to training.
Well, 71 kg and 240 watts for an hour would be around 23 mph on the drops, a very fast pace and level. Unsure what a *Sunday club rider* is but all the people around here on Sunday club group rides are doing about 17-18 mph ( in a group ), the very fast group (A) rides might do 20-22 mph for an hour or so.
For ref , 4 watts/kg is around the sub 3 hour marathon pace ( 2.40 isn ) and thats very fast.
For ref , 4 watts/kg is around the sub 3 hour marathon pace ( 2.40 isn ) and thats very fast.
thenortherner said:
Today was the first day of decent weather for a long time and the first time off the turbo for a couple of weeks. I thought I'd do a direct comparison of the results of a route I did at the end of November, when my training was just starting out, Vs today. I guess the results show in practice the gains I've made the the feedback I got from the VO2 test.
I'm pleased with the results. Not exactly a flat route, 44 miles and 1800 ft of climbing.
Maybe check the power data, you were doing 17.5 mph for the first ride but heartrate was 165!!, unless this was a very hilly ride it seems high for the speed ( only 1500 off foot of climbing? ).I'm pleased with the results. Not exactly a flat route, 44 miles and 1800 ft of climbing.
For ref my heart rate was sub 130 for the same speed but for 4 hours on Sunday, over 5000 feet of climbing ( i.e - a chilled sunday solo ride ).
Edited by superkartracer on Monday 17th February 10:53
superkartracer said:
Well, 71 kg and 240 watts for an hour would be around 23 mph on the drops, a very fast pace and level. Unsure what a *Sunday club rider* is but all the people around here on Sunday club group rides are doing about 17-18 mph ( in a group ), the very fast group (A) rides might do 20-22 mph for an hour or so.
For ref , 4 watts/kg is around the sub 3 hour marathon pace ( 2.40 isn ) and thats very fast.
No, its really not, anyone at a decent level at that weight will have an FTP pushing the high 200's at the least.For ref , 4 watts/kg is around the sub 3 hour marathon pace ( 2.40 isn ) and thats very fast.
Our club which has plenty of average Sunday riders in it regularly go out and do an evening loop of around 23 miles in around an hour, they are not even close to being 'very fast' or the A group.
If we look at a 1 hour route that's not hilly with a group of riders then I think you can look at the following -
Very good - 25-26 mph
Good - 22-24 mph
OK - 20 ish mph
Newer club riders - 17-19 mph
I think OP falls into the OK category at present, and as I said I don't think we need to get caught up in w/kg, it doesn't matter for 90% of uk cycling.
okgo said:
superkartracer said:
Well, 71 kg and 240 watts for an hour would be around 23 mph on the drops, a very fast pace and level. Unsure what a *Sunday club rider* is but all the people around here on Sunday club group rides are doing about 17-18 mph ( in a group ), the very fast group (A) rides might do 20-22 mph for an hour or so.
For ref , 4 watts/kg is around the sub 3 hour marathon pace ( 2.40 isn ) and thats very fast.
No, its really not, anyone at a decent level at that weight will have an FTP pushing the high 200's at the least.For ref , 4 watts/kg is around the sub 3 hour marathon pace ( 2.40 isn ) and thats very fast.
Our club which has plenty of average Sunday riders in it regularly go out and do an evening loop of around 23 miles in around an hour, they are not even close to being 'very fast' or the A group.
If we look at a 1 hour route that's not hilly with a group of riders then I think you can look at the following -
Very good - 25-26 mph
Good - 22-24 mph
OK - 20 ish mph
Newer club riders - 17-19 mph
I think OP falls into the OK category at present, and as I said I don't think we need to get caught up in w/kg, it doesn't matter for 90% of uk cycling.
Maybe things are diff down south but around here the speeds of all the clubs on sunday group rides are -
A - 17-18
B - 15-17
C - 12-14 - new club riders.
superkartracer said:
23 mph SOLO on the drops ( 71 kg and 240 watts ) , so add in an extra 2-3 mph for the group ride our OP would be doing 25-26 mph? so in your very good group?
Maybe things are diff down south but around here the speeds of all the clubs on sunday group rides are -
A - 17-18
B - 15-17
C - 12-14 - new club riders.
I don't buy that 240w on drops gets your 23mph unless you're very aero, how are you working that out?Maybe things are diff down south but around here the speeds of all the clubs on sunday group rides are -
A - 17-18
B - 15-17
C - 12-14 - new club riders.
Yes things are different down here, our 'club run pace' i.e. slow is 15-16mph. And if any of our good riders go in a group then the route would have to be very hilly not to average near to or over 20 mph.
I beat 900 riders on a 5 mins uphill segment last weekend doing a 22.5 mph climb and ONLY 285 watts avg and well below race pace, i'm 81 kg on the drops and a big chap.
@ 6 foot and only 70kg our OP must be a fking rake!! ha ha
I've a great app on the iPhone - http://bikecalculator.com
It's nearly spot on regards power/pacing and you can tweak for wind/grad and get near perfect times to actual rides.
@ 6 foot and only 70kg our OP must be a f
king rake!! ha haI've a great app on the iPhone - http://bikecalculator.com
It's nearly spot on regards power/pacing and you can tweak for wind/grad and get near perfect times to actual rides.
Edited by superkartracer on Monday 17th February 12:01
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