Dilemma. Constructive Dismissal or not ?
Discussion
Ok so to the background. This is all hypothetical and no actual persons were treated badly but it could happen ?
In Sept 2011 Mr X starts at a local company as a Business Development Manager on strategic and key accounts. Within 3 months someone leaves and it is verbally agreed that Mr X will take over about 60% of the duties and tasks of the chap leaving and taper down his own role by a similar amount.
Mr X asks the HR Director for a new job description to reflect what he is now doing but this never materialises. Fast forward to August 2012 when the nice little local company gets bought by a huge multinational.
Mr X is then TUPE'd across in early Nov and signs a new contract but all T&C's are the same with the exception of 3 months notice now and it was 1 month before. All well so far.
From Nov 2012 Mr X then works alongside the previous owner of the business and one other colleague in a support role but selling when time permits.
31/1/2014 and the previous owner has served his time to get his earn out and Mr X is advised that he is moving to report to another line manager and will have a new title. He is now essentially a lowly salesman
This was all verbally told to Mr X no actual consultation, no job description, no job objectives etc. Also no change to T&C's except that he will be on the better commission scheme.
Mr X also has a serious amount of comm or bonus still owing form 2013 that remains unresolved and the new line manager initially said that he felt it unlikely that this will get authorised 2 months in to 2014 !
So now we have Mr X about to undertake a demoted role for the same money, possibly not get his outstanding comm and do a job that he does not want to do. Does he potentially have any grounds to fight this on ?
The employer could of course made his role redundant and offered the lesser role on reduced terms but maybe thought that they were doing Mr x a favour by just redeploying him ?
Mr X is unhappy at the lack of simple respect shown by the assumptions made by the company and is still torn as to whether he should just quit or not. Mr X however still wants to secure the big chunk of comm first before such action.
So over to the legal beagles, if he flounces out has he essentially been constructively dismissed by the actions of the company ?
In Sept 2011 Mr X starts at a local company as a Business Development Manager on strategic and key accounts. Within 3 months someone leaves and it is verbally agreed that Mr X will take over about 60% of the duties and tasks of the chap leaving and taper down his own role by a similar amount.
Mr X asks the HR Director for a new job description to reflect what he is now doing but this never materialises. Fast forward to August 2012 when the nice little local company gets bought by a huge multinational.
Mr X is then TUPE'd across in early Nov and signs a new contract but all T&C's are the same with the exception of 3 months notice now and it was 1 month before. All well so far.
From Nov 2012 Mr X then works alongside the previous owner of the business and one other colleague in a support role but selling when time permits.
31/1/2014 and the previous owner has served his time to get his earn out and Mr X is advised that he is moving to report to another line manager and will have a new title. He is now essentially a lowly salesman
This was all verbally told to Mr X no actual consultation, no job description, no job objectives etc. Also no change to T&C's except that he will be on the better commission scheme.
Mr X also has a serious amount of comm or bonus still owing form 2013 that remains unresolved and the new line manager initially said that he felt it unlikely that this will get authorised 2 months in to 2014 !
So now we have Mr X about to undertake a demoted role for the same money, possibly not get his outstanding comm and do a job that he does not want to do. Does he potentially have any grounds to fight this on ?
The employer could of course made his role redundant and offered the lesser role on reduced terms but maybe thought that they were doing Mr x a favour by just redeploying him ?
Mr X is unhappy at the lack of simple respect shown by the assumptions made by the company and is still torn as to whether he should just quit or not. Mr X however still wants to secure the big chunk of comm first before such action.
So over to the legal beagles, if he flounces out has he essentially been constructively dismissed by the actions of the company ?
No. You have to think of constructive as being the employee sacking the employer for gross misconduct. With the same salary and more commission it's pretty hard to argue that, his routes forwards are to lodge a grievance officially or, perhaps more practically, to go for other jobs.
(I should add that's an opinion, you can always claim CD and go to tribunal and see what happens, but the chances aren't great if they put in a competent defence)
(I should add that's an opinion, you can always claim CD and go to tribunal and see what happens, but the chances aren't great if they put in a competent defence)
davepoth said:
No, not constructive dismissal. As far as written down things go, he's not really worse off.
I don't thinks its about the money. It hinges on lack of respect demonstrated, lack of common courtesy demonstrated and the simple fact that had he wanted to do that job then he would have applied for that type of job. Perhaps his annoyance is clouding his vision ?
The above advice is sensible, and remarkably similar to the paid for advice from a senior employment chappie that got a few years ago when my job title changed to one I had ten years ago.
Mind you, big company, not keen on a persistent grievance that I took to Stage 3, and a nice CA later, it was resolved.
Mind you, big company, not keen on a persistent grievance that I took to Stage 3, and a nice CA later, it was resolved.
Chipchap said:
davepoth said:
No, not constructive dismissal. As far as written down things go, he's not really worse off.
I don't thinks its about the money. It hinges on lack of respect demonstrated, lack of common courtesy demonstrated and the simple fact that had he wanted to do that job then he would have applied for that type of job. Perhaps his annoyance is clouding his vision ?
Have they affected your opportunity to earn?
Upthejunction said:
A BDM is just a new business rep.
Have they affected your opportunity to earn?
The role changed dramatically within 3 months from a BDM and continued all the way until the end of Jan 2014. The original role was admittedly a BDM on Key accounts and Strategic Markets but that later formed 40% or less of the every day tasks. The remainder was in setting technical specifications, equipment procurement, asset finance, calculating the costs associated with maintaining the asset throughout its life, asset disposal values etc.Have they affected your opportunity to earn?
Now its just back to simple door knocking for the fellow. No loss of income, just prospects and loss of face.
Upthejunction said:
Do you have the opportunity to present to the new bosses on what you'd been doing and the increased value you could bring to the organisation if they let you continue doing what you were?
Do they already have people fulfilling that role or do they not see the value.
Funnily enough he did that late last year. He has been verbally told informally that this current situation is only "Interim" but when the question was asked "How long is interim?" & "What are the plans at the end of interim ?"Do they already have people fulfilling that role or do they not see the value.
Met with interim is as long as it takes and no idea on the 2nd part. It seems all a bit wooly.
Which leaves him uncomfortable that he may be left in the cul-de-sac forever
randlemarcus said:
The above advice is sensible, and remarkably similar to the paid for advice from a senior employment chappie that got a few years ago when my job title changed to one I had ten years ago.
Mind you, big company, not keen on a persistent grievance that I took to Stage 3, and a nice CA later, it was resolved.
Not a Japanese owned outfit by any chance?Mind you, big company, not keen on a persistent grievance that I took to Stage 3, and a nice CA later, it was resolved.
The business has grown around the employee. A business devlopment manager in a small company may have similar duties to a salesman in a big one, plus a fee foisted on him because small companies have to be more flexible
Maybe the OP should reframe that in a bigger company where talent will win out, a successful ex BDM can really show them what he can do and progress through the ranks.
Maybe the OP should reframe that in a bigger company where talent will win out, a successful ex BDM can really show them what he can do and progress through the ranks.
Chipchap said:
Also the perception is that the new title will seriously impact in his ability to land any new roles elsewhere as he will need to be honest about what he is doing now.
And that is resolved very simpily:2011 - present X company
then highlight the better role bold with the current lesser title not bolded at CV sift the bold stuff will be read and at interview the normal formatted stuff is there if anyone cares to look or ask.
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