The Tiered Income Tax System. Why ?
The Tiered Income Tax System. Why ?
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Discussion

Chipchap

Original Poster:

2,639 posts

227 months

Saturday 1st February 2014
quotequote all
As a non economist can someone please explain to me why we have a tiered tax system. the two parts that I would like to understand are :--

1] Why a tax free allowance

2] Why 20% to a threshold then 40% then 50%

Surely if we had a simplified 20% flat rate on all income for all people we would require less civil servants to work on it, perhaps have a lot less individuals trying to find ways round it and maybe just maybe have the same overall income for the treasury.

I fail to understand why, if I worked harder in my early years to progress up the greasy pole that I actually pay more tax exponentially on my earnings as they increase.

Help out a dimwit................

LimaDelta

8,520 posts

248 months

Saturday 1st February 2014
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Because a flat rate isn't fair. You see, if you work hard you end up with all this extra money that you don't need, the fair thing to do is pay even more of it to the government.

timbo999

1,547 posts

285 months

Saturday 1st February 2014
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Firstly, I suggest looking up the meaning of the word exponentially!

I would have thought this was bleeding obvious - its all about ability to pay...

stevenjhepburn

291 posts

159 months

Saturday 1st February 2014
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LimaDelta said:
Because a flat rate isn't fair. You see, if you work hard you end up with all this extra money that you don't need, the fair thing to do is pay even more of it to the government.
You know there are multiple ways for a system to be fair, right?

timbo999

1,547 posts

285 months

Saturday 1st February 2014
quotequote all
Also, if there was a flat rate, it would be way way higher than 20% - go look at the numbers...

LimaDelta

8,520 posts

248 months

Saturday 1st February 2014
quotequote all
timbo999 said:
Also, if there was a flat rate, it would be way way higher than 20% - go look at the numbers...
How high? Also how much would be saved by effectively dismantling the whole Inland Revenue?

Self assessment?

Box 1. How much did you earn?

Please send HMRC x% of box 1

Done.

Chipchap

Original Poster:

2,639 posts

227 months

Saturday 1st February 2014
quotequote all
timbo999 said:
Firstly, I suggest looking up the meaning of the word exponentially!

I would have thought this was bleeding obvious - its all about ability to pay...
Perhaps a poor use of that word. I suppose what I was trying say was that we reach threshold a and its 20% at threshold B the balance is taxed at 40% and then depending on which party are in there may be a 3rd threshold [never reached it so don't know] and should I have the audacity to have a company car and fuel card it get taxed at the higher rate too !

As to fair I fail to see what is fair about it hence why I asked. I view it as unfair. As the income amount increases the taxation in £ increases if a flat rate is applied. After all we do not spend % we spend £ in the shops.

So again assuming 20 or 25 or 30% was the number it should apply equally to all who work on every pound earned. Why burden those who are achieving with a greater load is my question.

Whilst we are at it why have PAYE & NI why not just one deduction, after all its all going to the country whether its HMRC or whomever.

A

Chipchap

Original Poster:

2,639 posts

227 months

Saturday 1st February 2014
quotequote all
LimaDelta said:
How high? Also how much would be saved by effectively dismantling the whole Inland Revenue?

Self assessment?

Box 1. How much did you earn?

Please send HMRC x% of box 1

Done.
+1 for simplicity.

grumbledoak

32,571 posts

263 months

Saturday 1st February 2014
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Votes, basically. Everyone votes for taxes to be paid by 'someone else' and there are far more poor than rich.

The_Burg

4,853 posts

244 months

Saturday 1st February 2014
quotequote all
timbo999 said:
Also, if there was a flat rate, it would be way way higher than 20% - go look at the numbers...
20.8% or there abouts. Less the admin. SO f@ck all.

LimaDelta

8,520 posts

248 months

Saturday 1st February 2014
quotequote all
The problem with any tax system is that most peoples attitude is "I pay more - system is unfair, someone else pays more - system is fair".

NPI

1,310 posts

154 months

Saturday 1st February 2014
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Chipchap said:
Surely if we had a simplified 20% flat rate on all income for all people we would require less civil servants to work on it,
The cost of collecting income tax is tiny.

Chipchap said:
Help out a dimwit................
The Government has to raise a certain amount of money through income tax. Most tax is paid by a few high earners. If the rate was flat they'd pay less, so, guess what, everybody else pays more. Whoever imposes increased taxes on the majority of people isn't going to get re-elected.

technodup

7,661 posts

160 months

Saturday 1st February 2014
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I'm no economist but I've always liked the idea of a flat tax. I'm all for simplicity and a shorter tax code and smaller civil service to collect it is a good thing.

One rate for all is about as fair as it could be- I don't see what is 'progressive' or fair that higher earners pay proportionally more than others.





The_Burg

4,853 posts

244 months

Saturday 1st February 2014
quotequote all
NPI said:
Chipchap said:
Surely if we had a simplified 20% flat rate on all income for all people we would require less civil servants to work on it,
The cost of collecting income tax is tiny.

Chipchap said:
Help out a dimwit................
The Government has to raise a certain amount of money through income tax. Most tax is paid by a few high earners. If the rate was flat they'd pay less, so, guess what, everybody else pays more. Whoever imposes increased taxes on the majority of people isn't going to get re-elected.
Really? Most tax is avoided by those who can avoid it. 50% tax is applied to a tiny minority.

timbo999

1,547 posts

285 months

Saturday 1st February 2014
quotequote all
Chipchap said:
erhaps a poor use of that word. I suppose what I was trying say was that we reach threshold a and its 20% at threshold B the balance is taxed at 40% and then depending on which party are in there may be a 3rd threshold [never reached it so don't know] and should I have the audacity to have a company car and fuel card it get taxed at the higher rate too !

As to fair I fail to see what is fair about it hence why I asked. I view it as unfair. As the income amount increases the taxation in £ increases if a flat rate is applied. After all we do not spend % we spend £ in the shops.

So again assuming 20 or 25 or 30% was the number it should apply equally to all who work on every pound earned. Why burden those who are achieving with a greater load is my question.

Whilst we are at it why have PAYE & NI why not just one deduction, after all its all going to the country whether its HMRC or whomever.

A
I said it was about ability to pay... I didn't say it was fair... see note above about votes!

timbo999

1,547 posts

285 months

Saturday 1st February 2014
quotequote all
The_Burg said:
20.8% or there abouts. Less the admin. SO f@ck all.
Where on earth did you get that from?... http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-22575135


whoami

13,201 posts

270 months

Saturday 1st February 2014
quotequote all
timbo999 said:
The_Burg said:
20.8% or there abouts. Less the admin. SO f@ck all.
Where on earth did you get that from?... http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-22575135
I would check the background of the contributor to that piece if I were you...

stevenjhepburn

291 posts

159 months

Saturday 1st February 2014
quotequote all
Chipchap said:
So again assuming 20 or 25 or 30% was the number it should apply equally to all who work on every pound earned.
In the example where 2 people the same hourly wage but one always does overtime and one never does, is it fair for the person who is working "harder" to pay "more"?

As I said in an earlier reply, "fair" is not an absolute.

Why don't we simply set a tax liability of £2,500 per year on everyone, no matter their ability to pay? I'm sure some people would consider that "fair".

timbo999

1,547 posts

285 months

Saturday 1st February 2014
quotequote all
whoami said:
I would check the background of the contributor to that piece if I were you...
There's two... which are you slagging off exactly?!? But I'm not holding up that account as any better than any other, but practically all analysis I've seen points to a flat rate in the 30s percentage wise...

Rickeh

246 posts

245 months

Saturday 1st February 2014
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Because poor people can't afford to pay much tax but rich people can.