Questions on Changes to contract of employment

[mrmender]

My employer is in the middle of far reaching changes to our contract of employment. I would think that roughly 50% will accept Im in the other 50% that is likley not too.
Ive had a firm offer of another job.
If I refuse to sign the new contact from my present employer, can I claim redundancy? Or can they claim constructive dissmisal?

[Pabl0]

Constructive Dismissal is not something an employer can claim against an employee. In essence, it is where the employee is "forced" out due to intolerable situations/conditions at the work place. The employee claims against the employer.

[Siscar]

Neither.

You can refuse to sign, if you do then it is up to the employer what to do next which could be nothing. Ultimately they could dismiss you but much depends on what sort of changes we are talking about as to what the outcome could be,

[Quattromaster]

Siscar said:

You can refuse to sign, if you do then it is up to the employer what to do next which could be nothing. ,

That's interesting, I've just done contracts for the 5 lads who work for me, and 1 lad refuses to sign it on the advice of his father in law.

In contract it states they must have started work/ left yd by 7.45 am, earlier if wish, but no later, in order for them to get to customers at a reasonable time. This guy states he can start when he wants has he has 2 young kids ( I don't have kids so don't understand he says) , at moment he wanders in approx 8.20, not getting to customers until 9.30am.

Time for a think.

[heebeegeetee]

Quattromaster said:

That's interesting, I've just done contracts for the 5 lads who work for me, and 1 lad refuses to sign it on the advice of his father in law.

In contract it states they must have started work/ left yd by 7.45 am, earlier if wish, but no later, in order for them to get to customers at a reasonable time. This guy states he can start when he wants has he has 2 young kids ( I don't have kids so don't understand he says) , at moment he wanders in approx 8.20, not getting to customers until 9.30am.

Time for a think.

Surely if the lad is not adhering to his current contract then you can sack him?

Aside from that, I'm really not sure about these employment contract thingies. If the employee doesn't want to accept changes to his/her contract, what sort of contract was/is it in the first place if the options are to accept changes or lose one's job?

[Siscar]

Quattromaster said:

That's interesting, I've just done contracts for the 5 lads who work for me, and 1 lad refuses to sign it on the advice of his father in law.

In contract it states they must have started work/ left yd by 7.45 am, earlier if wish, but no later, in order for them to get to customers at a reasonable time. This guy states he can start when he wants has he has 2 young kids ( I don't have kids so don't understand he says) , at moment he wanders in approx 8.20, not getting to customers until 9.30am.

Time for a think.

As also said, a key point is the length of service, if less that two years and you want to go this way you can simply say 'sign this or leave', if longer it is more complex and, although I have a lot of experience in employment, I wouldn't like to comment more - you need proper legal advice on how to get a contract signed and what it can say.

[Quattromaster]

He is coming up to 2 yrs service in April so I've til then to make a decision.

[Tribal Chestnut]

Siscar said:

As also said, a key point is the length of service, if less that two years and you want to go this way you can simply say 'sign this or leave', if longer it is more complex and, although I have a lot of experience in employment, I wouldn't like to comment more - you need proper legal advice on how to get a contract signed and what it can say.

Is that correct? You can simply tell an employee to sign a new contract, which might have a negative affect on their working conditions, pay, etc, and if they refuse they can be sacked??

[Siscar]

Tribal Chestnut said:

Siscar said:

As also said, a key point is the length of service, if less that two years and you want to go this way you can simply say 'sign this or leave', if longer it is more complex and, although I have a lot of experience in employment, I wouldn't like to comment more - you need proper legal advice on how to get a contract signed and what it can say.

Is that correct? You can simply tell an employee to sign a new contract, which might have a negative affect on their working conditions, pay, etc, and if they refuse they can be sacked??

If inside two years of employment then effectively, yes. Inside two years they are unprotected and their employment can be ceased for any reason so long as it's not the ones like racism, sexism etc.

After two years it all gets a whole lot more complex, I understand that it can still be possible in certain circumstances but that's where you need much better legal advice than you are likely to get here.

[Siscar]

Quattromaster said:

He is coming up to 2 yrs service in April so I've til then to make a decision.

Well I'd do it now, don't let it get too close to the 2 year mark or it will seem like you are doing it because he's about to hit 2 years. Would that matter? Or solicitors have advised previously that it's best to be wary of although, to be honest, I'm not 100% sure why.

[mrmender]

Thanks for the replys!
Ive worked for 6 years with my present employer.
It's as i thought they can basicly sack me! They want to reduce our annual leave, pull out of their pension contribution, stop all sick pay, And replace anyone who leaves or retires on a totally different contract on less pay! Also a pay feeze for an undetermined amount of time!
Also hinted in the "big plan" they want to give our jobs to a manning/management agency. Effectively I will be employed by someone else. The union reps seems to think they will bash us about first, then do the latter

[Siscar]

No after six years they can't just sack you. Equally if your job is transferred to another employer then TUPE kicks in and your existing conditions need to be retained.

The leave, pension contribution and sick pay changes aren't ones that they are likely to be able to force, however who they employ as replacements, pay freeze and transfer to another company (on your existing terms) are. All, of course, depending on what your existing contract actually says.

[Zeeky]

The fact that you are being asked to sign new contracts rather than confirm a variation in accordance with a provision within the existing contract suggests that your employer needs your express consent to these changes.

If that is the case and you do not give it, your employer has two options:

First , it can terminate your employment on the existing conditions and offer re-engagement on the new conditions. Provided you are given contractual notice there is no breach of contract.

Your employer would need to justify the dismissal as for a fair reason and follow a fair procedure (mainly this involves consultation). If there are solid business reasons for the change and a fair procedure is followed the dismissal will be fair. Even if the reasons constitute a genuine redundancy situation you are not entitled to redundancy pay if you refuse an offer of suitable alternative employment which the new contract may well be.

Secondly, your employer could just impose the changes.

You could then refuse to work the changes and see of you are dismissed as above.

If the changes are fundamental (and this appears possible from what you have written) you could resign and claim constructive unfair dismissal and your employer would need to justify the dismissal as above. (You could, possibly, carry on working under protest and bring a claim for constructive unfair dismissal.)

If you work the changes without protest you may well be deemed to have accepted them.


Any changes made prior to a transfer of employment to another employer are not covered by TUPE but the date of transfer is not always clear.


You might be able to negotiate a settlement with your employer to leave rather than sign the new contract.



(There is a third option. The employer could allow the employes who do not agree to the change to continue working under the 'old' contract but this is unlikely).

[mrmender]

Thanks for the replys guys
This whole thing stinks! The management/maning company/agency, whom may take over our jobs, Is actually owned by my employer!

[anonymous-user]

Zeeky said:

T


...

Any changes made prior to a transfer of employment to another employer are not covered by TUPE but the date of transfer is not always clear.


...

Your post is mostly correct, Zeeks, but this bit of it isn't. If a change is made prior to a transfer of undertaking, but for a reason connected with the forthcoming transfer, then TUPE does come into play. It is not uncommon for a transferee to stipulate that the transferor should make changes to the employees' contracts, and in that event TUPE may prevent the changes taking effect, or protect employees dismissed for not agreeing to the changes. The question is always the reason for the change, not whether it pore or posts dates the transfer, or by how long it does so.

I add that a TUPE related dismissal may still be fair if the reason for it is an economic, technical, or organisational reason entailing a change in the workforce.

Where TUPE is not in play, dismissal arising from changes made for a pressing business reason can be fair, but all depends on the facts

[curlie467]

mrmender said:

Thanks for the replys guys
This whole thing stinks! The management/maning company/agency, whom may take over our jobs, Is actually owned by my employer!

To be honest, reading what I have, I would be strongly considering that firm job offer.
Sounds like they are trying to change a whole load of things so could either be in trouble financially or safeguarding the future of the company, either way, if the changes don't suit you and you have another job then just go.

[GhiaX]

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