Turning a garage into a Large carcoon.
Discussion
I have five old classic cars in a 40x25 foot garage which is modern brick built with ceiling, cavity walls and well insulated. A dehumidifier is an option but would not keep the dust out so I was thinking along the lines of making the whole garage into a large carcoon type of thing with fans and filters.
. Has anyone done this?
If so calculations about air volume, fan size and sourcing of fans and filters would be good.
Happy New Year to you all.
. Has anyone done this?
If so calculations about air volume, fan size and sourcing of fans and filters would be good.
Happy New Year to you all.
As you've already recognised the key thing here is the airflow - that is the one important feature of all of these things: keeping a steady (as in temperature/humidity/salinity controlled) airflow over the car(s).
The main thing I would consider is the placement of the fans.
On my old Airchamber it had 2 fans - 1 by the NSF, one at the OSR. These ran in tandem, the front one sucking air INTO the chamber, the rear one blowing it OUT of the chamber - thus a steady flow of air over the car was achieved.
Good luck working it all out
The main thing I would consider is the placement of the fans.
On my old Airchamber it had 2 fans - 1 by the NSF, one at the OSR. These ran in tandem, the front one sucking air INTO the chamber, the rear one blowing it OUT of the chamber - thus a steady flow of air over the car was achieved.
Good luck working it all out
you don't mention heating so I assume (always dangerous) it's unheated
things to perhaps consider
the idea is to have stability, unfortunately you never fully get it
the once popular single floor open plan office or storage area were nightmares to work out heating and ventilation because of the uncontrollable variables of having people use them opening and closing doors and windows for personal preferences
how much sun does each wall get and the roof all year round, the location of the garage and what surrounds it
with your garage you need to consider if you have windows what comes or goes through them even when closed or sealed - best that you don't have windows at all (or doors) just the same materials and insulation level all the way round (above and below too)
is/are your (car) garage door(s) sealed and insulted, what material and colour are the car doors
are all the walls cavity and insulted, how much is external walls, what ceiling and level of insulation to the ceiling, type of roof and roof materials
to fit the fans obviously you'll be putting holes in the walls or windows which will be areas of almost zero insulation
the big variable is the weather which is what you're trying to insulate against, the hot, the cold, to an extent the more insulation the more stability - also variations of open door(s)
what is this dust you get, from inside or outside, either way it probably means something isn't sealed (doors, windows, floor, ect.)
have fun
things to perhaps consider
the idea is to have stability, unfortunately you never fully get it
the once popular single floor open plan office or storage area were nightmares to work out heating and ventilation because of the uncontrollable variables of having people use them opening and closing doors and windows for personal preferences
how much sun does each wall get and the roof all year round, the location of the garage and what surrounds it
with your garage you need to consider if you have windows what comes or goes through them even when closed or sealed - best that you don't have windows at all (or doors) just the same materials and insulation level all the way round (above and below too)
is/are your (car) garage door(s) sealed and insulted, what material and colour are the car doors
are all the walls cavity and insulted, how much is external walls, what ceiling and level of insulation to the ceiling, type of roof and roof materials
to fit the fans obviously you'll be putting holes in the walls or windows which will be areas of almost zero insulation
the big variable is the weather which is what you're trying to insulate against, the hot, the cold, to an extent the more insulation the more stability - also variations of open door(s)
what is this dust you get, from inside or outside, either way it probably means something isn't sealed (doors, windows, floor, ect.)
have fun
Rich B the cars have covers at the moment and they are a pain. In the same way I have had carcoons and frame devices but they are a pain too especially when you want the car at the back of the garage.
Ntl16 thank you for a long and detailed response .( I only insult my doors and walls if I bump my head on them!)
The garage is unheated and it was built to house standards with an insulated cavity wall and ceiling with Loft above, in case I needed to expand. All walls are external and the doors are metal and white. I have not but could pay more attention to the draught proofing around the doors but I was assuming that if I needed an air flow over the cars, that I would put a couple of fans at the far end and the air would find its way out through the doors
The is no particular dust issue, no power tool use or factory next door, just general dust which seems to accumulate over a couple of weeks.
I vaguely remember the inventor of carcoon correcting people who thought that airflow was the most important factor . Perhaps he said that it was keeping the temperature constant so that water did not condense or was it pushing warmer air through so it carried off moisture? I cannot remember.
If anyone has converted their whole garage in this way I would be interested to hear as it would be much more convenient for me if it works.
Ntl16 thank you for a long and detailed response .( I only insult my doors and walls if I bump my head on them!)
The garage is unheated and it was built to house standards with an insulated cavity wall and ceiling with Loft above, in case I needed to expand. All walls are external and the doors are metal and white. I have not but could pay more attention to the draught proofing around the doors but I was assuming that if I needed an air flow over the cars, that I would put a couple of fans at the far end and the air would find its way out through the doors
The is no particular dust issue, no power tool use or factory next door, just general dust which seems to accumulate over a couple of weeks.
I vaguely remember the inventor of carcoon correcting people who thought that airflow was the most important factor . Perhaps he said that it was keeping the temperature constant so that water did not condense or was it pushing warmer air through so it carried off moisture? I cannot remember.
If anyone has converted their whole garage in this way I would be interested to hear as it would be much more convenient for me if it works.
I've done my whole (single) garage. I firstly tried to stop any draughts by sealing and insulating all the windows and doors. This alone didn't stop the discs oxidising over a few months. Next I added a dehumidifier in the rear off side corner. The dehumidifier had a fan in it which sucked air over the chiller elements and blew it out the other side. I added a pipe from the water collection tank and vented it out through an external wall. This means that I didn't need to keep emptying the collection tank on the dehumidifier. This stopped the oxidising on the both rear discs but not the front. Thinking that the air circulation wasn't sufficient I added a some ducting to the fan outlet. Now air is sucked through the osr and vented on the nsf.
Added a thermostat controlled heater and all is good and has been for several years.
You will be surprised how much moisture the atmosphere carries. If the garage hasn't been opened for a few days and then I go grab a tool for something leaving the door open for a minute or two, for the next few days I easily get a couple of pints of water a day vented.
Added a thermostat controlled heater and all is good and has been for several years.
You will be surprised how much moisture the atmosphere carries. If the garage hasn't been opened for a few days and then I go grab a tool for something leaving the door open for a minute or two, for the next few days I easily get a couple of pints of water a day vented.
Edited by 3200gt on Tuesday 7th January 14:37
my last post was more of a long ott post to show there can be a bit more to it
if your garage is insulated to the same standard as your house that's very good but you don't have a large uninsulated door metal door(s) in your house
and I'll leave you to research the pro & cons of white and metal doors
I thought you were going to do some calculations to determine your requirements but if you're going to just accept the gaps around the door(s) why not keep it at that simple level and just put in some permanently open vents instead of worrying about filtered powered fans
another thought, phone or email George and ask him for advice (I assume your framed and bubble airflow chambers are from Carcoon)
my unconsidered advise to you is to sell two or three of your cars and use the two or three left regularly and you'll not be worrying about such things as presumably you'll be able to park all three at an angle in their Carcoons so that each can be moved without disturbing the others - plus regular use will get plenty of fresh air over them regularly
if your garage is insulated to the same standard as your house that's very good but you don't have a large uninsulated door metal door(s) in your house
and I'll leave you to research the pro & cons of white and metal doors
I thought you were going to do some calculations to determine your requirements but if you're going to just accept the gaps around the door(s) why not keep it at that simple level and just put in some permanently open vents instead of worrying about filtered powered fans
another thought, phone or email George and ask him for advice (I assume your framed and bubble airflow chambers are from Carcoon)
my unconsidered advise to you is to sell two or three of your cars and use the two or three left regularly and you'll not be worrying about such things as presumably you'll be able to park all three at an angle in their Carcoons so that each can be moved without disturbing the others - plus regular use will get plenty of fresh air over them regularly
3200gt - the OP could just use his Carcoons which would negated the need for a dehumidifier or heater
in fact if you'd bought a Carcoon you could have saved the work you've done but each to their own
you may already know this but in case not, with a drain on the dehumidifier depending on certain factors you could risk a greater chance of the unit freezing up from the drainage back to the unit
a mate with a (non-drained) dehumidifier in his large newly built garage knew better and wouldn't believe me that it could freeze because "the boiler is in the garage with a frost stat on it"
- he was lucky as the dehumidifier had only just started to freeze up and this was before the last two bad winters
ETA: if you have any (material, not the right word but only one I can think of at the moment) carpets, mats or large material cloths or curtains then these can hold a lot of damp and moisture so throw them out of the garage, offer them to your partner for the spare/study/junk room
in fact if you'd bought a Carcoon you could have saved the work you've done but each to their own
you may already know this but in case not, with a drain on the dehumidifier depending on certain factors you could risk a greater chance of the unit freezing up from the drainage back to the unit
a mate with a (non-drained) dehumidifier in his large newly built garage knew better and wouldn't believe me that it could freeze because "the boiler is in the garage with a frost stat on it"
- he was lucky as the dehumidifier had only just started to freeze up and this was before the last two bad wintersETA: if you have any (material, not the right word but only one I can think of at the moment) carpets, mats or large material cloths or curtains then these can hold a lot of damp and moisture so throw them out of the garage, offer them to your partner for the spare/study/junk room
Edited by nta16 on Tuesday 7th January 15:08
I use Airchambers to store my cars in a normal garage, they simply have two small fans at one end of the chamber with basic dust filters blowing into the chamber. Air leaks out of the chamber via the zips and velcro fastenings. No dehumidifier, no heating, no charcoal filters and more importantly no condensation or surface corrosion to the discs at all, ever, not in over 8 years of using them.
Is there a danger of making it too complicated chaps, seems like constant airflow is the critical factor?
Simon
Is there a danger of making it too complicated chaps, seems like constant airflow is the critical factor?
Simon
3200gt said:
I did consider a carcoon but given the size of modern garages its a tight fit anyway.
that wouldn't really matter as it's at very low pressure, unlike my trouser belt there be plenty of give3200gt said:
... get in, get out again because I forgot to disconnect the battery conditioner, get in again and drive out.
you wait until you get in and can't remember why
when I used a battery conditioner I had it on a lead that had a plug and socket on the car charge lead that was fixed to the car, you could perhaps do a version that connects outside the car at the driver's door so that you see it before you get into the car or don't have to get out of the car to disconnect it, or have the lead or connector at the external door handle
my battery conditioner+ is actually a Carcoon unit (badged Accumate) that conditioned the battery and kept the bubble inflated so you'd have got a battery conditioner too with the Carcoon
+ I actually bought the Carcoon battery conditioner years after I gave away my Carcoon as they were selling them as battery conditioners at a good price at the NEC one year, I expect when the cold weather finally arrives here one of my neighbours will again benefit from it's use
Edited by nta16 on Tuesday 7th January 15:52
From what you describe it sounds like a dehumidfier & heating combination would be ideal.
seal the garage further to minimise air circulation. Then dehumidify and heat above freezing.
Plumbed-in dehumidifiers are incredibly efficient and could reduce RH to 55% in your garage in a few hours.
The only reason air circulation is used in Carcoons is because the RH is not mitigated against.
Seal the garage!!
seal the garage further to minimise air circulation. Then dehumidify and heat above freezing.
Plumbed-in dehumidifiers are incredibly efficient and could reduce RH to 55% in your garage in a few hours.
The only reason air circulation is used in Carcoons is because the RH is not mitigated against.
Seal the garage!!
these units cost money to buy and possibly to facilitate and install then there's the running costs
sealing the garage is fine until you put a (at least) 6' x 7' hole in one wall by opening a garage door
but yes stability is the key
brick it up so you can't even see it then remove some bricks if you ever need to move/sell or who knows drive it
of course if you seal too well you might need to ventilate
IIRC 25 years ago Rolls Royce wanted the garage headed to 50/55(?)F (no that sounds too high but it's the figure that springs to mind)
ETA: words I'd missed out
sealing the garage is fine until you put a (at least) 6' x 7' hole in one wall by opening a garage door
but yes stability is the key
brick it up so you can't even see it then remove some bricks if you ever need to move/sell or who knows drive it
of course if you seal too well you might need to ventilate
IIRC 25 years ago Rolls Royce wanted the garage headed to 50/55(?)F (no that sounds too high but it's the figure that springs to mind)
ETA: words I'd missed out
Edited by nta16 on Tuesday 7th January 16:57
i don't see a garage door being a problem when only opened occasionally. Temp and RH will soon return to normal. Also, taking a car out and returning it after a run will bring a lot of heat to the garage. A good dehumidifier runs at 250W. Depending on just how sealed the garage is will drive how long the unit needs to run for. Raising ambient will also cost money, but 5 deg will not be that much in a sealed unit "built to housing insulation standards".
I know a little about this from two separate fronts:
- firstly trying to reduce humidity (mould) in a coastal house. Everyone said ventilation, but it never fully worked. so i then sealed the house and run 3 dehumidifiers. Once sealed these units were running around a third of the day. Approx 650w maintaining 60%RH.
- in a separate house i have an integral garage. An alpine chalet where temps this time of year often stay below -5 for weeks. Despite being unheated, and despite using the garage as our front door, stays at 10+ degrees. The 'front door' is a door-sized door within the up-and-over. I seal the up-and-over with masking tape to stop draughts too - doesn't take long to re-apply 2" masking tape, certainly less than zipping up a carcoon!
In summary, if OP house a high standard garage and not opening doors everyday, i say "seal and dry"
I know a little about this from two separate fronts:
- firstly trying to reduce humidity (mould) in a coastal house. Everyone said ventilation, but it never fully worked. so i then sealed the house and run 3 dehumidifiers. Once sealed these units were running around a third of the day. Approx 650w maintaining 60%RH.
- in a separate house i have an integral garage. An alpine chalet where temps this time of year often stay below -5 for weeks. Despite being unheated, and despite using the garage as our front door, stays at 10+ degrees. The 'front door' is a door-sized door within the up-and-over. I seal the up-and-over with masking tape to stop draughts too - doesn't take long to re-apply 2" masking tape, certainly less than zipping up a carcoon!
In summary, if OP house a high standard garage and not opening doors everyday, i say "seal and dry"
I have a single width, double length garage attached to side wall of heated (in winter) house. The house walls are unfilled cavity and transmit some heat. The outer garage wall single brick. Front and rear pairs of doors are timber, roof is part flat felted timber and pitched tiled uninsulated. Garage doors have air gap underneath. Garage is never heated yet always remains above outside temperature during winter. Cars are not used daily. If used during winter they NEVER return to garage unless engines/transmissions are at normal operating temperature and had at least a five mile run to warm up brakes/suspension etc. Make full use of hot car returning to garage to dry-off discs etc if wet. I would have thought that the ideal scenario for a 'car' garage would be underfloor heating - electric or 'wet' just a constant gentle heat a few degrees above worst outside temperature should negate any damp issues.
different strokes for different folks, if you have a proven working system then that's what you want
the key is stability and maintaining the stability, as I try to tell my wife, things like opening doors and leaving them open for longer than necessary upsets this, in summer I like to keep cooler by having the windows, open able vents, blinds and curtains all shut to reduce solar gain and warmer air getting in and when my wife gets in she opens them to let the warm air “as a cooling breeze” – we disagree on many things except that things will be done her way
I've no idea of the Carcoon running costs now but it would be a very small fraction of 250w but it would be constantly running
personally I’m not one for using stick tape of any kind (or glue or paint, never really watched Blue Peter)
on a house it depends on its age and construction materials, old houses had either a flue (chimney) or air vent to each room and ventilation to underfloor for floor boards, older houses would lack these, if you’ve sealed the flues and vents I wonder how that effects the house materials, I’ve no idea might be an improvement for all I know
the 5 mile run for a car wouldn’t be enough for me, 20 miles on a classic to get it moving and battery charge back
the Carcoon will dry the car out after a run
be interesting to know what works on OP's 1,000 ft garage (with white metal door)
I still think my idea of reducing the fleet and using the existing bubbles is best
the key is stability and maintaining the stability, as I try to tell my wife, things like opening doors and leaving them open for longer than necessary upsets this, in summer I like to keep cooler by having the windows, open able vents, blinds and curtains all shut to reduce solar gain and warmer air getting in and when my wife gets in she opens them to let the warm air “as a cooling breeze” – we disagree on many things except that things will be done her way
I've no idea of the Carcoon running costs now but it would be a very small fraction of 250w but it would be constantly running
personally I’m not one for using stick tape of any kind (or glue or paint, never really watched Blue Peter)
on a house it depends on its age and construction materials, old houses had either a flue (chimney) or air vent to each room and ventilation to underfloor for floor boards, older houses would lack these, if you’ve sealed the flues and vents I wonder how that effects the house materials, I’ve no idea might be an improvement for all I know
the 5 mile run for a car wouldn’t be enough for me, 20 miles on a classic to get it moving and battery charge back
the Carcoon will dry the car out after a run
be interesting to know what works on OP's 1,000 ft garage (with white metal door)
I still think my idea of reducing the fleet and using the existing bubbles is best
Thank you all again for your helpful advice.
At the moment I am leaning towards a sealed garage with an internal air circulating system and a desiccant dehumidifier to work at lower temperatures.
The air volume in the garage is 40x25x8 cubic feet which is 8000 cubic feet.
The question then is what size fans. I suspect that they only have to move the air gently round so they can be quite small.
What size drier. I understand that the desiccant types cost more to run than compressor types but are costing nearer £150 as opposed to £250 for compressor types.
Would a fan working in an enclosed garage create enough pressure to keep dust out, or just end up circulating the dust?
At the moment I am leaning towards a sealed garage with an internal air circulating system and a desiccant dehumidifier to work at lower temperatures.
The air volume in the garage is 40x25x8 cubic feet which is 8000 cubic feet.
The question then is what size fans. I suspect that they only have to move the air gently round so they can be quite small.
What size drier. I understand that the desiccant types cost more to run than compressor types but are costing nearer £150 as opposed to £250 for compressor types.
Would a fan working in an enclosed garage create enough pressure to keep dust out, or just end up circulating the dust?
drmark said:
Forget the fan. Just go for dessicant dehumidifier (which has fan and filter) and cover cars with cheap dust covers. Aim for 55% RH.
But you will need to trunk the fan vent to the other end of the garage to gain full air flow circulation or you'll end up, as I did, just dehumidifying the area around the unit only.Gassing Station | Classic Cars and Yesterday's Heroes | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff