are cooper S discs any good?
Discussion
I run S disks and they are great. They are also very expensive. Go to www.miniclassic.co.uk and somewhere there, either "notices" or "questions" is a thread about running Fiesta Mk1 callipers on turned down disks from a late mini, 8.4 disks. This is safer than modding metro callipers and is cheaper and as good as 4 pots, etc, etc.
My S disks were £230, then I had to totally rebuild them. Very expensive but they are great.
My S disks were £230, then I had to totally rebuild them. Very expensive but they are great.
ccharlie6 said:
are they that much of an improvement of drums and whats needed for the conversion?
Anything apart from the early 7" Cooper disks are a big improvement over drums. Properly adjusted drums have good stopping power at lower speeds, but are prone to fade and often pull randomly to one side or the other IME. They need to adjusted very regularly as well.
A good set of Cooper S disks with decent pads running on 10" wheels are a great setup. The improvement over drums is huge and gives a far more confidence inspiring car to drive.
s discs are really good brakes provided that good discs and quality pads are used. they are even better with a set of aftermarket alloy calipers.
modding iron metro four pots to fit 10" wheels is both foolhardy and dangerous.
the fiesta caliper idea works but does not provide much braking effort - certainly not in the leage of s discs with four pots. its not a route i would recommend - especally when cooper s stuff is so readly avalible new.
yes cooper s stuff is expensive, but not as expensive as crashing your car with poor quality bodged brakes.
modding iron metro four pots to fit 10" wheels is both foolhardy and dangerous.
the fiesta caliper idea works but does not provide much braking effort - certainly not in the leage of s discs with four pots. its not a route i would recommend - especally when cooper s stuff is so readly avalible new.
yes cooper s stuff is expensive, but not as expensive as crashing your car with poor quality bodged brakes.
guru_1071 said:
s discs are really good brakes provided that good discs and quality pads are used. they are even better with a set of aftermarket alloy calipers.
modding iron metro four pots to fit 10" wheels is both foolhardy and dangerous.
the fiesta caliper idea works but does not provide much braking effort - certainly not in the leage of s discs with four pots. its not a route i would recommend - especally when cooper s stuff is so readly avalible new.
yes cooper s stuff is expensive, but not as expensive as crashing your car with poor quality bodged brakes.
Modding 4 pots is safe if you know what you are doing. Very dangerous for an amateur though.
With 10" wheels it's best to go for 7.5" Cooper 'S' discs and carbon-metallic pads (from Mini Spares). I can never think how one could get, or need, better braking than that. It's what I use on my 1964 Historic rally Car and that goes, and stops, well enough. The C-M pads last a long time as well and work across a very wide temp range. Pedal feel is excellent. The only disappointing thing is that those pads are not available for the 8.4" discs and I've just had to pay £115 for a set of comp pads for my 1990 Cooper Enduro Rally Car for next weeks RAC Revival Rally.
do the carbon metallic pads make a screechy race brake noise or are they just a normal type of pad? can you get drilled, vented etc 7.5 discs?
edited to add: what about ebc green stuff pads? i see mini spares stock them for cooper s discs
>> Edited by ccharlie6 on Tuesday 16th November 19:36
edited to add: what about ebc green stuff pads? i see mini spares stock them for cooper s discs
>> Edited by ccharlie6 on Tuesday 16th November 19:36
love machine and others (!)
using metro four pots on ten inch wheels is a bodge. ive seen it done very well - you have to move the caliper as far in as possible and monkey around spacers, discs and flanges. and ive seen it done very badly - one of my customers 'machined' the calipers down to clear and about three weeks later went into the side of another car - loosing an eye in the process, when the caliper went porus and blew all the fluid out. even when its done correctley you are left with a very heavy caliper and a disc thats not much use - the vents are too small to work correctley. - its the same as the fiesta route, yes they will work, but are not effective enough for a quick mini.
my opinion is that brakes are not something to cut corners with, spend the money on the proper stuff and do the job correctly once - its not as if its difficult or expensive to buy new kits from suppliers.
but i guess like everything, you pay your money, you take your chances!!
as for pads, i wouldnt recommend carbon metalics for road use, they take too long to warm up and are very aggressive on the discs - you can get through two or three pairs of discs to a set of pads! ebc green stuff are a good, cheap pad for fast road and compatition. for the more enthusastic driver ferrodo DS3000 are a very good option, they are expensive - around 70 pounds a set but work well from cold and are very good, they are also a lot kinder to the discs, you can get them in the three pad sizes as well, unlike carbons
using metro four pots on ten inch wheels is a bodge. ive seen it done very well - you have to move the caliper as far in as possible and monkey around spacers, discs and flanges. and ive seen it done very badly - one of my customers 'machined' the calipers down to clear and about three weeks later went into the side of another car - loosing an eye in the process, when the caliper went porus and blew all the fluid out. even when its done correctley you are left with a very heavy caliper and a disc thats not much use - the vents are too small to work correctley. - its the same as the fiesta route, yes they will work, but are not effective enough for a quick mini.
my opinion is that brakes are not something to cut corners with, spend the money on the proper stuff and do the job correctly once - its not as if its difficult or expensive to buy new kits from suppliers.
but i guess like everything, you pay your money, you take your chances!!
as for pads, i wouldnt recommend carbon metalics for road use, they take too long to warm up and are very aggressive on the discs - you can get through two or three pairs of discs to a set of pads! ebc green stuff are a good, cheap pad for fast road and compatition. for the more enthusastic driver ferrodo DS3000 are a very good option, they are expensive - around 70 pounds a set but work well from cold and are very good, they are also a lot kinder to the discs, you can get them in the three pad sizes as well, unlike carbons
I thought that the carbon-meatllic pads would be too abrasive, but was very pleasantly surprised to find otherwise. I used Ferodo 3000, but needed one set per rally, so the cost became ridiculous. That's why I went to C-M and it has worked out extremely well.
After 5 rallies the discs are fine and I only just changed the pads for new ones before the last event.
After 5 rallies the discs are fine and I only just changed the pads for new ones before the last event.
cooperman
i was pointing out the worst case scenario for carbon pads - your quite correct that they do last a fair while when used more moderatly particually with the iron s calipers. when they are used in the alloy four pots they are far more aggresive, particualy when used with 12 or 13" wheels - there is just so much more brake effort both avalible and required to pull the car.
can you not use the alloy four pots on your later car?
i was pointing out the worst case scenario for carbon pads - your quite correct that they do last a fair while when used more moderatly particually with the iron s calipers. when they are used in the alloy four pots they are far more aggresive, particualy when used with 12 or 13" wheels - there is just so much more brake effort both avalible and required to pull the car.
can you not use the alloy four pots on your later car?
guru_1071 said:
cooperman
i was pointing out the worst case scenario for carbon pads - your quite correct that they do last a fair while when used more moderatly particually with the iron s calipers. when they are used in the alloy four pots they are far more aggresive, particualy when used with 12 or 13" wheels - there is just so much more brake effort both avalible and required to pull the car.
can you not use the alloy four pots on your later car?
No, the new Enduro regulations mandate a completely standard braking system. The only changes are that Aeroquip hoses are allowed, brake fluid may be changed - I run AP600 Racing Fluid - and brake pad material is free.
I could not find any C-M pads for the later car and have ended up with some special Mintex, now made and marketed by a company near Rochdale. Tried them out last night for the first time and they were really 'grabbing' and locking wheels, even after I bedded them in as instructed. I will have another go this evening. The first event for the car, the RAC Revival Rally, starts next week in York at 07-30 hours on the Thursday. If I don't feel confident with the brakes I'll get a set of Ferodo 3000 (hang the expense!). I find that I can fade out EBC 'GreenStuff' very easily and when my buddy, Peter Horsburgh, tried the RedStuff in his '64 Cooper 'S' he wore out the pads in about 50 stage miles on dry tarmac.
Since asbestos has been banned it's difficult getting good pads for a Mini. I always think that it's not a question of discs (i.e. 8.4" vented or 7.5" solid), but more of pad materials. With the right material you can lock the wwheels even at high braking temps and high speeds and you can't ask more than that. I loved the Mintex 171 and the old Ferodo DS11, but you can't find these anywhere now.
you cannot get carbons for the 8.4" pad shape - i dont know why
I have had similar problems with greenstuff pads - the quality does seem to vary from batch to batch. my top tip for them is to fit them and to cook them until they fade, once this is done they work really well and last a lot longer. if this isnt done they always seem a bit rubbish and wear out a lot quicker.
have you tried demon tweeks for mintex m1144 - they do have some stock left and have a good reputation?
I have had similar problems with greenstuff pads - the quality does seem to vary from batch to batch. my top tip for them is to fit them and to cook them until they fade, once this is done they work really well and last a lot longer. if this isnt done they always seem a bit rubbish and wear out a lot quicker.
have you tried demon tweeks for mintex m1144 - they do have some stock left and have a good reputation?
guru_1071 said:
you cannot get carbons for the 8.4" pad shape - i dont know why
I have had similar problems with greenstuff pads - the quality does seem to vary from batch to batch. my top tip for them is to fit them and to cook them until they fade, once this is done they work really well and last a lot longer. if this isnt done they always seem a bit rubbish and wear out a lot quicker.
have you tried demon tweeks for mintex m1144 - they do have some stock left and have a good reputation?
I did try M1144, but they faded very badly on tarmac rallies. I then tried the M1155 which I didn't find much better. With both of these I felt the 'pedal feel' was poor as well. I suppose it's a subjective thing really and can be a matter of personal preference. it also depends on how late a braker you are (perhaps I'm "the last of the late brakers!").
What I think I'll do is to try to find some C-M pads which are larger than the 8.4" pads and mill them down to the Mini size. I can create a CAD/CAM milling programme for this and run off several sets at one time.
[quote=guru_1071]you cannot get carbons for the 8.4" pad shape - i dont know why
I have had similar problems with greenstuff pads - the quality does seem to vary from batch to batch. my top tip for them is to fit them and to cook them until they fade, once this is done they work really well and last a lot longer. if this isnt done they always seem a bit rubbish and wear out a lot quicker.
have you tried demon tweeks for mintex m1144 - they do have some stock left and have a good reputation?[
/quote]RICH, you need to get out more !
>> Edited by cone on Thursday 18th November 10:48
I have had similar problems with greenstuff pads - the quality does seem to vary from batch to batch. my top tip for them is to fit them and to cook them until they fade, once this is done they work really well and last a lot longer. if this isnt done they always seem a bit rubbish and wear out a lot quicker.
have you tried demon tweeks for mintex m1144 - they do have some stock left and have a good reputation?[
/quote]RICH, you need to get out more !
>> Edited by cone on Thursday 18th November 10:48
cone said:
[quote=guru_1071]you cannot get carbons for the 8.4" pad shape - i dont know why
/quote]RICH, you need to get out more !
>> Edited by cone on Thursday 18th November 10:48
Is it me? I don't understand this at all!
And what's wrong with good remoulds? (see earlier post). I have to use Colway Road-Plus on the Enduro RAC Revival rally as it's the mandated tyre. Seem OK to me, but obviously not in the same league as Yoko A032 or 008, or even the Falkens. Be better on gravel as the sidewalls are reinforced.
About the 4 Pot callipers, he obviously didn't split them and check the drillings first. Only about 20% of callipers have enough meat to start with. If you don't do this, burst through is a fair old chance.
There is a thread on Miniclassic about how a guy had problems with porosity in minisp*** billet callipers.
As for pads, my greenstuff (EBC) have just bedded in and they are beautiful. The kevlar ones I had before were OK as well.
In hindsight, I would have bought a pair of callipers, exchanged them for Recon ones and bought everything else new from minispares, etc. I have realised that one of my CV shafts is worn just a weeny bit and so I will be replacing those also!!! It all adds up.
I used to be a cheapskate and my secondhand bargain engine I bought blew up (after I had tested it) hence I am building another engine and have realised that I should be into about £2K (ouch).
Secondhand stuff generally doesn't pay off.
There is a thread on Miniclassic about how a guy had problems with porosity in minisp*** billet callipers.
As for pads, my greenstuff (EBC) have just bedded in and they are beautiful. The kevlar ones I had before were OK as well.
In hindsight, I would have bought a pair of callipers, exchanged them for Recon ones and bought everything else new from minispares, etc. I have realised that one of my CV shafts is worn just a weeny bit and so I will be replacing those also!!! It all adds up.
I used to be a cheapskate and my secondhand bargain engine I bought blew up (after I had tested it) hence I am building another engine and have realised that I should be into about £2K (ouch).
Secondhand stuff generally doesn't pay off.
Absolutely right there. If you buy cheap stuff for any car you are just buying more trouble.
£2k for a complete engine sounds about right.
If you allow about £1200 for the parts, including machining and really good pistons (Hepolite 21253's are great), Vandervell bearings, good quality new cam, etc., plus about 40 hours labour that's about right. You just can't build a proper engine for less without cutting corners. Oh, I know there are those who say the £50 piston sets are fine. They may well be, but not for high revs, high compression and hot cam. In my 1964 'S' I use Karl Schmidt pistons. They cost around £400 per set, but are fantastic and so far mine have done 26 rallies. All I've done is change the rings once. I now use 'Total-Seal' rings, which have a gapless 2nd ring. They are about £120 per set, but they are fabulous. They even use them in racing aircraft in the States (get them from Lowman-Jones Ltd. in Dagenham,Essex).
Don't forget to re-con the gearbox when rebuilding the engine. It may seem fine, but I built an engine recently for an historic rally car with about 100 bhp and asked the owner what his box was like. He said he thought it was fine, so we put it all together. He ran the car in, then used the new extra power and, you've guessed it, the box failed, so it all had to come out again.
£2k for a complete engine sounds about right.
If you allow about £1200 for the parts, including machining and really good pistons (Hepolite 21253's are great), Vandervell bearings, good quality new cam, etc., plus about 40 hours labour that's about right. You just can't build a proper engine for less without cutting corners. Oh, I know there are those who say the £50 piston sets are fine. They may well be, but not for high revs, high compression and hot cam. In my 1964 'S' I use Karl Schmidt pistons. They cost around £400 per set, but are fantastic and so far mine have done 26 rallies. All I've done is change the rings once. I now use 'Total-Seal' rings, which have a gapless 2nd ring. They are about £120 per set, but they are fabulous. They even use them in racing aircraft in the States (get them from Lowman-Jones Ltd. in Dagenham,Essex).
Don't forget to re-con the gearbox when rebuilding the engine. It may seem fine, but I built an engine recently for an historic rally car with about 100 bhp and asked the owner what his box was like. He said he thought it was fine, so we put it all together. He ran the car in, then used the new extra power and, you've guessed it, the box failed, so it all had to come out again.
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