Is My Manager Going To Survive This?
Discussion
Big bunfight going on at work at the moment. Our Chief Estimator has made an absolute howler pricing a contract that is now losing money hand over fist. Everyone in the company knows what he has done. The attitude of our directors is, however, that what has happened has happened is not to be refered to and our energies are to be focused on damage limitation by wringing out every last penny from claims and driving staff to achieve maximum efficiencies including operating in a sharp corner cutting manner.
The guy who is really suffering here is my commercial manager who regularly attends meetings where the tone is that he is in some way responsible for this mess and level of losses and, therefore, he needs to up his game as the extent of these losses on "his" contract are unacceptable. Eventually he snapped pointing out the reason for the mess is the Chief Estimator's errors while referring to him in the meeting as a "useless
of a man"
In construction this use of this sort of language is neither unusual or unacceptable.
Chief Estimator has heard of this comment and has demanded the Commercial Manager should be sacked for gross misconduct. If he isn't the complainant has threatened to leave the company and claim for constructive dismissal. From what I've heard the board's attitude is if they decide the Estimator will walk and it'll be expensive inspite of the fact the estimator has damaged the company and the commercial manager is doing an excellent job of limiting this damage the Commercial manager will be getting the chop.
What do you think of his chances?
The guy who is really suffering here is my commercial manager who regularly attends meetings where the tone is that he is in some way responsible for this mess and level of losses and, therefore, he needs to up his game as the extent of these losses on "his" contract are unacceptable. Eventually he snapped pointing out the reason for the mess is the Chief Estimator's errors while referring to him in the meeting as a "useless
of a man"In construction this use of this sort of language is neither unusual or unacceptable.
Chief Estimator has heard of this comment and has demanded the Commercial Manager should be sacked for gross misconduct. If he isn't the complainant has threatened to leave the company and claim for constructive dismissal. From what I've heard the board's attitude is if they decide the Estimator will walk and it'll be expensive inspite of the fact the estimator has damaged the company and the commercial manager is doing an excellent job of limiting this damage the Commercial manager will be getting the chop.
What do you think of his chances?
Edited by Tannedbaldhead on Sunday 1st December 11:30
Is the manager well respected? - more so than the estimator?
Surely a formal disciplinary meeting can be called (presuming first occurrence) and a written warning can be given inline with process (depends on contract terms/disciplinary procedures).
If the guy then walks they can show that the matter was dealt with and they have no case...notice can then be 'expired' in the future.
Surely a formal disciplinary meeting can be called (presuming first occurrence) and a written warning can be given inline with process (depends on contract terms/disciplinary procedures).
If the guy then walks they can show that the matter was dealt with and they have no case...notice can then be 'expired' in the future.
As I see it....
Your manager's "grievance" is with the people giving him an unfairly hard time.
Regardless of what the Chief Estimator did - it's not appropriate for your boss to slag him off using obscene language.
Potentially your boss could be on a disciplinary accused of misconduct. The poor performance of the Chief Estimator doesn't (IMO) excuse his language, so I guess he'd be found guilty of misconduct. Wouldn't have thought it was a sackable offence though.
Your manager's "grievance" is with the people giving him an unfairly hard time.
Regardless of what the Chief Estimator did - it's not appropriate for your boss to slag him off using obscene language.
Potentially your boss could be on a disciplinary accused of misconduct. The poor performance of the Chief Estimator doesn't (IMO) excuse his language, so I guess he'd be found guilty of misconduct. Wouldn't have thought it was a sackable offence though.
Manager didn't direct comment directly at estimator, ergo, its second hand. If estimator hands in his notice, i see him having a problem proving constructive dismissal?
We had an Estimator miss an underground car park on a new build, it should of been picked up on adjudication, but slipped through.
Estimators favorite whinge is time constraints/workload. Sometimes they work in your favour, more often they don't.
Our Estimator got the bullet, sounds like you have one needs the same. Damage limitation is all, thats the job of a good commercial manager, without pissing the client off.
One slip and its a deck of cards though.
We had an Estimator miss an underground car park on a new build, it should of been picked up on adjudication, but slipped through.
Estimators favorite whinge is time constraints/workload. Sometimes they work in your favour, more often they don't.
Our Estimator got the bullet, sounds like you have one needs the same. Damage limitation is all, thats the job of a good commercial manager, without pissing the client off.
One slip and its a deck of cards though.
CE needs to raise grievance against CM. Employer needs to deal with grievance appropriately. If employer fails to deal with complaint at all, an unfair constructive dismissal claim against it will probably have merit (should CE choose to resign in response to that failure).
If employer summarily dismisses CM because of CE's demand that may also be unfair dismissal.
If employer summarily dismisses CM because of CE's demand that may also be unfair dismissal.
Zeeky said:
CE needs to raise grievance against CM.
He has. Zeeky said:
Employer needs to deal with grievance appropriately.
I think that process has started.Zeeky said:
If employer fails to deal with complaint at all, an unfair constructive dismissal claim against it will probably have merit.
Would it be possible that the company could investigate the comments and take as little action as giving advice to non appropriate language thus being seen to act or is CM in trouble here?Sounds like the CE knows he is on a sticky wicket and is hoping this situation has played into his hands in the hope of a compromise agreement and pay off to walk.
Sounds like the CM has given him the opportunity to play this hand. I would expect if the CM has no previous disciplinary on record, this could be dealt with with a formal warning, in my opinion it's not a gross misconduct issue.
Sounds like the CM has given him the opportunity to play this hand. I would expect if the CM has no previous disciplinary on record, this could be dealt with with a formal warning, in my opinion it's not a gross misconduct issue.
Putting aside the likelihood of the survival of your manager, can one assume that on the contract or quotation the letters E&OE appeared?
If so, your company can legally withdraw the offer and issue a revised price - though this would normally enable the client to seek alternative, new proposals.
It stands for Errors and Omissions Excepted and designed to limit the liability for inaccurate and incomplete information. I don't know the full legal ramifications and I would have thought that if you have started on the contract, then it's probably too late but your manager's survival may be enhanced if he were to explore this particular avenue.
If so, your company can legally withdraw the offer and issue a revised price - though this would normally enable the client to seek alternative, new proposals.
It stands for Errors and Omissions Excepted and designed to limit the liability for inaccurate and incomplete information. I don't know the full legal ramifications and I would have thought that if you have started on the contract, then it's probably too late but your manager's survival may be enhanced if he were to explore this particular avenue.
Putting aside the likelihood of the survival of your manager, can one assume that on the contract or quotation the letters E&OE appeared?
If so, your company can legally withdraw the offer and issue a revised price - though this would normally enable the client to seek alternative, new proposals.
It stands for Errors and Omissions Excepted and designed to limit the liability for inaccurate and incomplete information. I don't know the full legal ramifications and I would have thought that if you have started on the contract, then it's probably too late but your manager's survival may be enhanced if he were to explore this particular avenue.
If so, your company can legally withdraw the offer and issue a revised price - though this would normally enable the client to seek alternative, new proposals.
It stands for Errors and Omissions Excepted and designed to limit the liability for inaccurate and incomplete information. I don't know the full legal ramifications and I would have thought that if you have started on the contract, then it's probably too late but your manager's survival may be enhanced if he were to explore this particular avenue.
Why is the company carrying on? I'd be straight with the employer, tell them what has happened and if they have no sympathy (they might of course) tell them that you'll do no further work on that project. Must be a better option than (a) losing money or (b) chasing claims which will wreck their reputation?
TX.
TX.
Tannedbaldhead said:
...Would it be possible that the company could investigate the comments and take as little action as giving advice to non appropriate language thus being seen to act or is CM in trouble here?
Quite possible, yes. The rudeness or swearing probably isn't the main problem. My concern would be whether not CE could continue to have confidence in the employment relationship if CM holds that opinion of him. That depends, primarily, on how the CE and CM roles interact. Zeeky said:
Tannedbaldhead said:
...Would it be possible that the company could investigate the comments and take as little action as giving advice to non appropriate language thus being seen to act or is CM in trouble here?
Quite possible, yes. The rudeness or swearing probably isn't the main problem. My concern would be whether not CE could continue to have confidence in the employment relationship if CM holds that opinion of him. That depends, primarily, on how the CE and CM roles interact. People mess up. We don't do it on purpose these things happen.
As part of a company you are part of a team, and as such if someone makes a howler of an error it is the company that needs to pull together and put it right. How does going around and pointing the finger or firing someone help anyone? All it will do is breed a culture of fear and people will then stop taking responsibility for their own work.
The CM, I assume being a senior person in the company, should have kept his cool and not blown up. The company knows who the error sits with and doesn't need reminding. It also sends the wrong signals to the rest of the work force as the management should be there to watch their backs and help them through troubled times. The CM is in the wrong, not lose his job in the wrong, but wrong and in my opinion should be pulled up on it.
As part of a company you are part of a team, and as such if someone makes a howler of an error it is the company that needs to pull together and put it right. How does going around and pointing the finger or firing someone help anyone? All it will do is breed a culture of fear and people will then stop taking responsibility for their own work.
The CM, I assume being a senior person in the company, should have kept his cool and not blown up. The company knows who the error sits with and doesn't need reminding. It also sends the wrong signals to the rest of the work force as the management should be there to watch their backs and help them through troubled times. The CM is in the wrong, not lose his job in the wrong, but wrong and in my opinion should be pulled up on it.
stumpage said:
People mess up. We don't do it on purpose these things happen.
As part of a company you are part of a team, and as such if someone makes a howler of an error it is the company that needs to pull together and put it right. How does going around and pointing the finger or firing someone help anyone? All it will do is breed a culture of fear and people will then stop taking responsibility for their own work.
The CM, I assume being a senior person in the company, should have kept his cool and not blown up. The company knows who the error sits with and doesn't need reminding. It also sends the wrong signals to the rest of the work force as the management should be there to watch their backs and help them through troubled times. The CM is in the wrong, not lose his job in the wrong, but wrong and in my opinion should be pulled up on it.
Good points - but my understanding of the OP is that the Commercial Manager is taking flack for a mistake that wasn't his in the first placeAs part of a company you are part of a team, and as such if someone makes a howler of an error it is the company that needs to pull together and put it right. How does going around and pointing the finger or firing someone help anyone? All it will do is breed a culture of fear and people will then stop taking responsibility for their own work.
The CM, I assume being a senior person in the company, should have kept his cool and not blown up. The company knows who the error sits with and doesn't need reminding. It also sends the wrong signals to the rest of the work force as the management should be there to watch their backs and help them through troubled times. The CM is in the wrong, not lose his job in the wrong, but wrong and in my opinion should be pulled up on it.
Someone I know called the MD a few rude words, and in damage limitation, got his doctor to write him off sick due to exhaustion and stress, which his union used to great impact in the subsequent disciplinary process. I think the result was the MD actually apologising to him privately.
The only time people loose it are when under stress, and WHO puts them under stress? Duty of care extends to mental health.
The only time people loose it are when under stress, and WHO puts them under stress? Duty of care extends to mental health.
SpeckledJim said:
Zeeky said:
Tannedbaldhead said:
...Would it be possible that the company could investigate the comments and take as little action as giving advice to non appropriate language thus being seen to act or is CM in trouble here?
Quite possible, yes. The rudeness or swearing probably isn't the main problem. My concern would be whether not CE could continue to have confidence in the employment relationship if CM holds that opinion of him. That depends, primarily, on how the CE and CM roles interact. Zeeky said:
SpeckledJim said:
Zeeky said:
Tannedbaldhead said:
...Would it be possible that the company could investigate the comments and take as little action as giving advice to non appropriate language thus being seen to act or is CM in trouble here?
Quite possible, yes. The rudeness or swearing probably isn't the main problem. My concern would be whether not CE could continue to have confidence in the employment relationship if CM holds that opinion of him. That depends, primarily, on how the CE and CM roles interact. Bit muppetish?
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