Employment Law Advice, Re Dismissal.

[catman]

Hi, a good friend of mine was dismissed today, but was given 5 days to appeal the decision.

He came prepared and gave the Manager a letter of appeal that he had already written.

They have told him that, as he has been dismissed, then his wages will be stopped immediately, even though he has appealed the decision.

Is this correct? I suspect that it may be, but I'm not sure. I'm looking for informed answers only please.

Thanks

Tim

[edc]

Gross misconduct dismissal means employment ceases at the point of the decision. No more pay. It is quite peculiar to have an appeal letter written before an outcome letter has been written and I would suggest disadvantageous to your friend. Get the letter and decision and respond based on those details.

[catman]

Thanks for your reply. He had been to Citizen's Advice while suspended, so he knew about the five day rule.

I think that he knew that he was likely to be sacked anyway and just wanted to make sure that they had the letter at the earliest opportunity.

He did say that they looked shocked when he handed it over!

Thanks

Tim

[530dTPhil]

The appeal letter is expected to set out the grounds for appeal. These are clearly defined and cover issues such as unduly harsh decision given the offence.
It is difficult to see how your friend could appeal a decision that had not been made at the time of writing.

[Zeeky]

Summary dismissal can be conditional on the outcome of the appeal or immediate with the possibility of reinstatement. The employer in this case has chosen the latter. The correctness of this choice depends on the contract.

[catman]

I understand what you have said, it makes perfect sense. I'm not sure whether he really expects to be re-instated, but he was very un-happy with the way that they had gone about his suspension and subsequent events and wanted to get his point across, I believe.

Thanks for your replies!

Tim

[Upatdawn]

The sacked person will get/should get pay in lieu of notice plus any holiday accrued

[mph1977]

Upatdawn said:

The sacked person will get/should get pay in lieu of notice plus any holiday accrued

PILON depends on the policy of the organisation , some organisations have the option for dismissal with notice or dismissal without notice when it's gross misconduct dismissal

accrued holiday pay should be paid regardless

[Zeeky]

PILON is a payment made in place of the employee being given notice required by the contract.

In a case of gross misconduct how can there be a contractual right to notice? By definition, the employer has the right to terminate the contract immediately.

[Upatdawn]

Our lad just got the elbow on the spot, he got pay in lieu...

and 3 weeks later, after his P45 came he got paid for the hours he worked and didnt expect paying but got sacked for when he screwed up when stating what times he started...his unpaid extra hours.....cos when he agreed to do the unpaid extra hours he was agreeing to them being his start times....

make sense of that if you will

[mph1977]

Zeeky said:

PILON is a payment made in place of the employee being given notice required by the contract.

In a case of gross misconduct how can there be a contractual right to notice? By definition, the employer has the right to terminate the contract immediately.

See my reply above yours.

[Zeeky]

I did and it is unclear how a particular policy provides the choice.

[mph1977]

Zeeky said:

I did and it is unclear how a particular policy provides the choice.

the employer has the right to dismiss without notice, therefore they also have the right to dismiss with notice ( or realistically PILON).

[edc]

Any internal policy is a moot point when it comes to summary dismissal as any employer can dismiss summarily if the situation fits.

[mph1977]

edc said:

Any internal policy is a moot point when it comes to summary dismissal as any employer can dismiss summarily if the situation fits.

exactly , but they can also choose to dismiss with notice ( as i said realistic PILON) if they think things may be best served by doing so ( i.e. they think it will prevent an appeal or even an ET) - much like the compromise agreements elsewhere

or to draw a parallel with the criminal justicse system there are a variety of options in punishments ...

it's a big jump from a final written warning to dismissal without notice ... if paying notice gets rid of your problem employee with the minimum fuss that makes business sense or do you really want to be dragged through the appeals process and on to an ET ...

[edc]

mph1977 said:

exactly , but they can also choose to dismiss with notice ( as i said realistic PILON) if they think things may be best served by doing so ( i.e. they think it will prevent an appeal or even an ET) - much like the compromise agreements elsewhere

or to draw a parallel with the criminal justicse system there are a variety of options in punishments ...

it's a big jump from a final written warning to dismissal without notice ... if paying notice gets rid of your problem employee with the minimum fuss that makes business sense or do you really want to be dragged through the appeals process and on to an ET ...

You can only pay PILON if the contract provides for it. There is no automatic right to this for either party. Also, the giving of notice in a situation where summary dismissal is warranted by the employer does not prevent any appeal nor an application to the tribunal. Anyway, most of these posts are going off track to what was actually asked.

[Zeeky]

I think the OP has his answer. mph is confused about what PILON is. It is, as edc points out, a contractual alternative to a contractual obligation to give notice.

An employer may choose to compensate the employee to avoid a wrongful dismissal claim but that shouldn't be described as PILON.

NB This wouldn't prevent the employee from bringing a claim for unfair dismissal if he qualifies.

[mph1977]

Zeeky said:

I think the OP has his answer. mph is confused about what PILON is. It is, as edc points out, a contractual alternative to a contractual obligation to give notice.

An employer may choose to compensate the employee to avoid a wrongful dismissal claim but that shouldn't be described as PILON.

NB This wouldn't prevent the employee from bringing a claim for unfair dismissal if he qualifies.

and no employer has ever dismissed with notice following a disciplinary ...

once again the proof by assertion merchants will not accept the views and experiences of those who actually have experience.

[edc]

mph1977 said:

and no employer has ever dismissed with notice following a disciplinary ...

once again the proof by assertion merchants will not accept the views and experiences of those who actually have experience.

Of course employers do dismiss with notice. I have done it on man an occasion. But the OP states there has been no notice and no further pay. The question was whether that is right whether it is right in the circumstance depends on the case but the fact remains that dismissal with no notice or further pay is not incorrect or necessarily unfair.

[catman]

Hi, thanks again for all the replies, I appreciate your taking the time!

Tim