Lead car body repair / filling
Discussion
Hi,
Asking the Q on behalf of my brother who has a TR6 we're about to bring out of a year or so's storage. There was rust around the front headlamp bezel and front valance where the wing joins when we put it away, and while it has not got any worse, it is something that needs to be addressed. He would rather get it repaired than replace the whole wing, which is fair enough, but wondered about lead filling and repair rather than a tub of Isopon slapped over it.
It will go to a specialist for the work, (when we find one) but I've asked a few friends who seem to think it's a dying art form these days, so it will be a costly exercise, someone suggesting it might work out cheaper to replace the panels completely.
I think the nightmares of filler coming through after 6 months, and he's a bit "anal" about wanting metal rather than filler have prompted this idea. Now he's returned from overseas the car will be used once serviced etc, it's stored / parked in a normal garage but does get used to the tune of 6-8k pa when he's home, in all weathers.
Cheers
Pete
Asking the Q on behalf of my brother who has a TR6 we're about to bring out of a year or so's storage. There was rust around the front headlamp bezel and front valance where the wing joins when we put it away, and while it has not got any worse, it is something that needs to be addressed. He would rather get it repaired than replace the whole wing, which is fair enough, but wondered about lead filling and repair rather than a tub of Isopon slapped over it.
It will go to a specialist for the work, (when we find one) but I've asked a few friends who seem to think it's a dying art form these days, so it will be a costly exercise, someone suggesting it might work out cheaper to replace the panels completely.
I think the nightmares of filler coming through after 6 months, and he's a bit "anal" about wanting metal rather than filler have prompted this idea. Now he's returned from overseas the car will be used once serviced etc, it's stored / parked in a normal garage but does get used to the tune of 6-8k pa when he's home, in all weathers.
Cheers
Pete
Lead is normally used to fill , shape, build up a panel not as a repair.
Rust needs removing and replacing with new metal the lead is then used to regain the shape .
Being soft it's only as strong as it's backing material, it is a dying art but many old school restorers still use it.
I have tried it .
It ended in a puddle on the floor.
Rust needs removing and replacing with new metal the lead is then used to regain the shape .
Being soft it's only as strong as it's backing material, it is a dying art but many old school restorers still use it.
I have tried it .
It ended in a puddle on the floor.
Still quite common in other countries.
My bro in law in Czech Republic has a mate who restores to an excellent standard; I have been amazed by the way he can warp a panel using heat to take out tiny dents and ripples that would just be filled over here.
He also still uses lead and solder to fill tiny holes instead of cutting and welding.
My bro in law in Czech Republic has a mate who restores to an excellent standard; I have been amazed by the way he can warp a panel using heat to take out tiny dents and ripples that would just be filled over here.
He also still uses lead and solder to fill tiny holes instead of cutting and welding.
Lead for dents that you can't panel beat out - welding for holes. Added to that, you can't do either where there's rust.
I took a mountain of filler out of my vintage car, and welded up the holes, and panel beat out the dents. Sure it took longer, but I now have the satisfaction of a proper job.
I took a mountain of filler out of my vintage car, and welded up the holes, and panel beat out the dents. Sure it took longer, but I now have the satisfaction of a proper job.
And yet, I've been asking around a few people experienced in body repair, and most now suggest that modern fillers are at least as good as lead-loading, and much easier to work with. I have some fairly big panel blends to cover on my restoration, and had thought about how "nice" it would be to lead them, but am increasingly leaning towards filling instead.
A lot of watching of "American Hotrod" seemed to suggest it would be quite easy to pick up leading, but then it was mainly the old metalworking guy (Roy) that did it, the rest just used filler.
If the problem on the join between the wing and the valance is actually creeping out from where the two panels meet, they need to be separated, the rust removed and the metal repaired if necessary, and then the panel(s) re-fitted. Whether lead or filler is needed depends on how bad the rust is - a pitted surface on the two flanges won't make much difference to anyone as it won't be seen.
A lot of watching of "American Hotrod" seemed to suggest it would be quite easy to pick up leading, but then it was mainly the old metalworking guy (Roy) that did it, the rest just used filler.
If the problem on the join between the wing and the valance is actually creeping out from where the two panels meet, they need to be separated, the rust removed and the metal repaired if necessary, and then the panel(s) re-fitted. Whether lead or filler is needed depends on how bad the rust is - a pitted surface on the two flanges won't make much difference to anyone as it won't be seen.
You tube is your friend here if you fancy a look at how its done. . .i recall seeing a guy lead load a join on a Jag Mk 2 a few years back, he made it look like a doddle, but guess what it isnt !
I suspect a modern filler is quicker/easier to get a better result for the majority of us (including me) but the satisfaction of lead loading is probably immense.
I watched a video from 'honest charleys garage' i think it was, they were chopping the roof of something and lead filling the joins IIRC. . .clever stuff
I suspect a modern filler is quicker/easier to get a better result for the majority of us (including me) but the satisfaction of lead loading is probably immense.
I watched a video from 'honest charleys garage' i think it was, they were chopping the roof of something and lead filling the joins IIRC. . .clever stuff
texaxile said:
Hi,
Asking the Q on behalf of my brother who has a TR6 we're about to bring out of a year or so's storage. There was rust around the front headlamp bezel and front valance where the wing joins when we put it away, and while it has not got any worse, it is something that needs to be addressed. He would rather get it repaired than replace the whole wing, which is fair enough, but wondered about lead filling and repair rather than a tub of Isopon slapped over it.
It will go to a specialist for the work, (when we find one) but I've asked a few friends who seem to think it's a dying art form these days, so it will be a costly exercise, someone suggesting it might work out cheaper to replace the panels completely.
I think the nightmares of filler coming through after 6 months, and he's a bit "anal" about wanting metal rather than filler have prompted this idea. Now he's returned from overseas the car will be used once serviced etc, it's stored / parked in a normal garage but does get used to the tune of 6-8k pa when he's home, in all weathers.
Cheers
Pete
There is no need to lead fill your job at all. The primary function of lead is to give a seamless joint, such as the headlight pods on the XK150 i'm doing right now.Asking the Q on behalf of my brother who has a TR6 we're about to bring out of a year or so's storage. There was rust around the front headlamp bezel and front valance where the wing joins when we put it away, and while it has not got any worse, it is something that needs to be addressed. He would rather get it repaired than replace the whole wing, which is fair enough, but wondered about lead filling and repair rather than a tub of Isopon slapped over it.
It will go to a specialist for the work, (when we find one) but I've asked a few friends who seem to think it's a dying art form these days, so it will be a costly exercise, someone suggesting it might work out cheaper to replace the panels completely.
I think the nightmares of filler coming through after 6 months, and he's a bit "anal" about wanting metal rather than filler have prompted this idea. Now he's returned from overseas the car will be used once serviced etc, it's stored / parked in a normal garage but does get used to the tune of 6-8k pa when he's home, in all weathers.
Cheers
Pete
The corroded metal needs replacing with new, and be seam welded or mig brazed in. Minimal filler should be used over a solid metal surface, then be properly sealed on the back, and properly painted. Should be better than new if done right
Interesting stuff.
My ex-landlord worked at Pressed Steel in Cowley and was a 'leading' specialist and they worked on Rolls bodies that were shipped there from Crewe.
Body shells like the Camargue, Spirit etc - enormous amount of lead work on those machines. Literally pounds of lead to smooth the seams, rooflines etc.
Even then, late 60s / 70s, all the work was undertaken fully suited up with air etc to counter the side effects of lead poisoning, showers as they left the unit etc.
These guys seem to think differently !!
My ex-landlord worked at Pressed Steel in Cowley and was a 'leading' specialist and they worked on Rolls bodies that were shipped there from Crewe.
Body shells like the Camargue, Spirit etc - enormous amount of lead work on those machines. Literally pounds of lead to smooth the seams, rooflines etc.
Even then, late 60s / 70s, all the work was undertaken fully suited up with air etc to counter the side effects of lead poisoning, showers as they left the unit etc.
These guys seem to think differently !!
V41LEY said:
Interesting stuff.
My ex-landlord worked at Pressed Steel in Cowley and was a 'leading' specialist and they worked on Rolls bodies that were shipped there from Crewe.
Body shells like the Camargue, Spirit etc - enormous amount of lead work on those machines. Literally pounds of lead to smooth the seams, rooflines etc.
Even then, late 60s / 70s, all the work was undertaken fully suited up with air etc to counter the side effects of lead poisoning, showers as they left the unit etc.
These guys seem to think differently !!
Lead is nasty stuff. Imagine the scale of lead filling at Jaguar, on the XJ6/XJS, loads of lead, and lots of cars being built, not like Rolls Royce. Interesting that all of the above have lots of craftmanship in the build, yet even speaking as a Jaguar fan and restorer, the body shells were nasty, poorly sealed rust trapsMy ex-landlord worked at Pressed Steel in Cowley and was a 'leading' specialist and they worked on Rolls bodies that were shipped there from Crewe.
Body shells like the Camargue, Spirit etc - enormous amount of lead work on those machines. Literally pounds of lead to smooth the seams, rooflines etc.
Even then, late 60s / 70s, all the work was undertaken fully suited up with air etc to counter the side effects of lead poisoning, showers as they left the unit etc.
These guys seem to think differently !!
texaxile said:
Hi,
Asking the Q on behalf of my brother who has a TR6 we're about to bring out of a year or so's storage. There was rust around the front headlamp bezel and front valance where the wing joins when we put it away, and while it has not got any worse, it is something that needs to be addressed. He would rather get it repaired than replace the whole wing, which is fair enough, but wondered about lead filling and repair rather than a tub of Isopon slapped over it.
It will go to a specialist for the work, (when we find one) but I've asked a few friends who seem to think it's a dying art form these days, so it will be a costly exercise, someone suggesting it might work out cheaper to replace the panels completely.
I think the nightmares of filler coming through after 6 months, and he's a bit "anal" about wanting metal rather than filler have prompted this idea. Now he's returned from overseas the car will be used once serviced etc, it's stored / parked in a normal garage but does get used to the tune of 6-8k pa when he's home, in all weathers.
Cheers
Pete
On a TR6 the front wing is a simple bolt-on thing. That rust around the headlamp will have come through from the other side (the headlamp bowl is a rust-trap). IMO it's quicker/cheaper/better just to bung on a wing. Changing the valance as well is a bit more of a faff but I'd still do that rather than chasing the rust around.Asking the Q on behalf of my brother who has a TR6 we're about to bring out of a year or so's storage. There was rust around the front headlamp bezel and front valance where the wing joins when we put it away, and while it has not got any worse, it is something that needs to be addressed. He would rather get it repaired than replace the whole wing, which is fair enough, but wondered about lead filling and repair rather than a tub of Isopon slapped over it.
It will go to a specialist for the work, (when we find one) but I've asked a few friends who seem to think it's a dying art form these days, so it will be a costly exercise, someone suggesting it might work out cheaper to replace the panels completely.
I think the nightmares of filler coming through after 6 months, and he's a bit "anal" about wanting metal rather than filler have prompted this idea. Now he's returned from overseas the car will be used once serviced etc, it's stored / parked in a normal garage but does get used to the tune of 6-8k pa when he's home, in all weathers.
Cheers
Pete
V41LEY][shortened said:
These guys seem to think differently !!
Certainly true, but don't forget that filler products have changed a lot since back then. One of the people I spoke to is in what used to be RR (I'm near Crewe) and they'd done tests on leading vs. newer filler types. Not saying that they actually use either now - the implication seemed to be that if a panel had blemishes now it would be scrapped and replaced with one that didn't.droopsnoot said:
V41LEY][shortened said:
These guys seem to think differently !!
Certainly true, but don't forget that filler products have changed a lot since back then. One of the people I spoke to is in what used to be RR (I'm near Crewe) and they'd done tests on leading vs. newer filler types. Not saying that they actually use either now - the implication seemed to be that if a panel had blemishes now it would be scrapped and replaced with one that didn't.Cheap now but I bet an absolute money pit to restore.
V41LEY said:
That is probably true. This guy was telling me that they had to work on most of the panels especially doors, boot lids and bonnets to get them perfect. Don 't know if that is just because that is what you paid for then in a 'Roller' or the die pressing back then always produced imperfections that you or I would probably not notice. He told me that on the Camargue, they often had to re-profile / retro-fit the doors as the amount of lead used to blend in the roof, boot and rear quarter panels caused the panel fit around the doors to vary from car to car. It was if you recall the most expensive car you could buy at the time.
Cheap now but I bet an absolute money pit to restore.
Most in the trade would agree that Rolls Royces' body shells and general boby assembly through the seventies onwards was, despite all the craftmanship, pretty shocking, and not to be confused with the early coachbuilt cars.Cheap now but I bet an absolute money pit to restore.
There is a difference between lead filling a buttress joint, as on an XJS, to lead filling an appalling shell to get things to fit. Then you are in Facel Vega HK500 country, where panels cannot be transferred from car to car!
Being a local lead leader (ooh see what I did there!) err.. I do quite a lot for local places. Anyway, lead is very good for rusty holes as it will seal the holes up. All fillers are porous and will blister eventually on rust repairs.
I did a resto on a Jag 240 many years ago. I saw the car again after 20 years and none of the rust repairs could be seen, even though the paint had "gone off".
The usual way of doing rust repairs is to fill with lead, provided the holes aren't too big where welding will be needed, and get the final shape with filler. On an E type soft top there is a huge amount of lead near the B post. Using large amounts of filler means cracks later as the panel flexes.
I do acknowledge the excellent properties of modern fillers, but lead will always be better for filling small rust holes.
I'll go and get me stick and bats and flux.....
I did a resto on a Jag 240 many years ago. I saw the car again after 20 years and none of the rust repairs could be seen, even though the paint had "gone off".
The usual way of doing rust repairs is to fill with lead, provided the holes aren't too big where welding will be needed, and get the final shape with filler. On an E type soft top there is a huge amount of lead near the B post. Using large amounts of filler means cracks later as the panel flexes.
I do acknowledge the excellent properties of modern fillers, but lead will always be better for filling small rust holes.
I'll go and get me stick and bats and flux.....
Having just put a reply on the blasting thread having seen our name (Retropower) mentioned, I have now seen this minefield thread and thought I'd wade in!
Firstly, corrosion.....This needs to be gone, whatever processes are to follow, NO rust can remain or it will eventually re-emerge. If there is rust, it needs blasting or chemically removing or cutting out.
We would always weld in new metal if blasting showed pinholes, BUT I do accept that these can be very satisfactorily filled with lead body solder, and if all the rust is gone, this repair will last and be fine.
We sit on the fence on the "lead vs filler" argument.
Polyester fillers sink......fact!
Lead doesn't, well, not at a rate that you'd see in your lifetime anyway!
However, most car owners have a finite budget. Most panel beaters (proper ones!) would prefer to get a steel panel perfect with no filler at all, but even to the most skilled, this is very time consuming, and therefore expensive. The balance is to get the panel extremely close, and use filler only as almost a "thick paint" rather than any significant thickness. This gives a good job, with very limited sinkage, at an affordable price.
We use lead where it was originally used on cars that we work on, most commonly probably the roof to c-pillar joins on most 1970's cars.
On repairs that could be exposed to water from the rear (that's most of them when you allow for condensation) which are not fully welded, I don't like to rely on seam sealer so we usually lead load the seam following welding to ensure it is fully sealed, then, once the panel is fully "corrected" (hammer and dolly) it is also filled to get final shape.
Finally, we never wet sand filler or primer. All cars that we paint are dry hand block sanded until the finished primer ready for paint stage, then are "pre-painted" in cheap 2k gloss paint, cured, THEN wet blocked. The 2k paint gives a very stable platform to wet block, as it is much harder than primer and easier to maintain a flat surface. It is also obviously non-porous, so there are no concerns of trapped moisture in primer.
Firstly, corrosion.....This needs to be gone, whatever processes are to follow, NO rust can remain or it will eventually re-emerge. If there is rust, it needs blasting or chemically removing or cutting out.
We would always weld in new metal if blasting showed pinholes, BUT I do accept that these can be very satisfactorily filled with lead body solder, and if all the rust is gone, this repair will last and be fine.
We sit on the fence on the "lead vs filler" argument.
Polyester fillers sink......fact!
Lead doesn't, well, not at a rate that you'd see in your lifetime anyway!
However, most car owners have a finite budget. Most panel beaters (proper ones!) would prefer to get a steel panel perfect with no filler at all, but even to the most skilled, this is very time consuming, and therefore expensive. The balance is to get the panel extremely close, and use filler only as almost a "thick paint" rather than any significant thickness. This gives a good job, with very limited sinkage, at an affordable price.
We use lead where it was originally used on cars that we work on, most commonly probably the roof to c-pillar joins on most 1970's cars.
On repairs that could be exposed to water from the rear (that's most of them when you allow for condensation) which are not fully welded, I don't like to rely on seam sealer so we usually lead load the seam following welding to ensure it is fully sealed, then, once the panel is fully "corrected" (hammer and dolly) it is also filled to get final shape.
Finally, we never wet sand filler or primer. All cars that we paint are dry hand block sanded until the finished primer ready for paint stage, then are "pre-painted" in cheap 2k gloss paint, cured, THEN wet blocked. The 2k paint gives a very stable platform to wet block, as it is much harder than primer and easier to maintain a flat surface. It is also obviously non-porous, so there are no concerns of trapped moisture in primer.
Mmmmm. Someone who knows for a change. My thoughts entirely. Seam sealer in my experience is a pos. I tend to use either silicone sealer or better still a semi structural sealer like Sika 291.
My point was that if you have a small "string vest" rust area, lead works very well - sometimes, cutting and welding causes so much distortion, even with a MiG. Gee, remember the days of only having oxy/acetylene?
Anyway, best regards to you and carry on the good work! Paul
My point was that if you have a small "string vest" rust area, lead works very well - sometimes, cutting and welding causes so much distortion, even with a MiG. Gee, remember the days of only having oxy/acetylene?
Anyway, best regards to you and carry on the good work! Paul
[quote=ns dev]
Firstly, corrosion.....This needs to be gone, whatever processes are to follow, NO rust can remain or it will eventually re-emerge. If there is rust, it needs blasting or chemically removing or cutting out.
Agree entirely!
I think a major issue that most don't consider is that most bodyshells are full of long metal-to-metal spot welded flanges, that even after blasting are still rusty and hidden from view. It needs a keen eye to see the bits that are getting thin from the b side!
Firstly, corrosion.....This needs to be gone, whatever processes are to follow, NO rust can remain or it will eventually re-emerge. If there is rust, it needs blasting or chemically removing or cutting out.
Agree entirely!
I think a major issue that most don't consider is that most bodyshells are full of long metal-to-metal spot welded flanges, that even after blasting are still rusty and hidden from view. It needs a keen eye to see the bits that are getting thin from the b side!
texaxile said:
Hi,
Asking the Q on behalf of my brother who has a TR6 we're about to bring out of a year or so's storage. There was rust around the front headlamp bezel and front valance where the wing joins when we put it away, and while it has not got any worse, it is something that needs to be addressed. He would rather get it repaired than replace the whole wing, which is fair enough, but wondered about lead filling and repair rather than a tub of Isopon slapped over it.
It will go to a specialist for the work, (when we find one) but I've asked a few friends who seem to think it's a dying art form these days, so it will be a costly exercise, someone suggesting it might work out cheaper to replace the panels completely.
I think the nightmares of filler coming through after 6 months, and he's a bit "anal" about wanting metal rather than filler have prompted this idea. Now he's returned from overseas the car will be used once serviced etc, it's stored / parked in a normal garage but does get used to the tune of 6-8k pa when he's home, in all weathers.
Hi Pete,
A good bodywork man will be able to fabricate a repair section. I know somebody in the trade who can lead load. Ironically, he has done some work on my car today! My Capri required a small repair at each end of the scuttle in the recess where the windscreen fits. Rather than use filler- which is hydroscopic, I wanted metal to plug two small holes. Using lead enabled the dashboard to remain in situ. Welding would have required stripping out the dash in order to prevent heat damage.
The chap I know is based in Churchtown, Southport. Not sure where you are, but feel free to message me if you want further details.
Cheers,
Pete
Cheers
Pete
Asking the Q on behalf of my brother who has a TR6 we're about to bring out of a year or so's storage. There was rust around the front headlamp bezel and front valance where the wing joins when we put it away, and while it has not got any worse, it is something that needs to be addressed. He would rather get it repaired than replace the whole wing, which is fair enough, but wondered about lead filling and repair rather than a tub of Isopon slapped over it.
It will go to a specialist for the work, (when we find one) but I've asked a few friends who seem to think it's a dying art form these days, so it will be a costly exercise, someone suggesting it might work out cheaper to replace the panels completely.
I think the nightmares of filler coming through after 6 months, and he's a bit "anal" about wanting metal rather than filler have prompted this idea. Now he's returned from overseas the car will be used once serviced etc, it's stored / parked in a normal garage but does get used to the tune of 6-8k pa when he's home, in all weathers.
Hi Pete,
A good bodywork man will be able to fabricate a repair section. I know somebody in the trade who can lead load. Ironically, he has done some work on my car today! My Capri required a small repair at each end of the scuttle in the recess where the windscreen fits. Rather than use filler- which is hydroscopic, I wanted metal to plug two small holes. Using lead enabled the dashboard to remain in situ. Welding would have required stripping out the dash in order to prevent heat damage.
The chap I know is based in Churchtown, Southport. Not sure where you are, but feel free to message me if you want further details.
Cheers,
Pete
Cheers
Pete
Something that is perhaps being overlooked here is mig-brazing. As workshop techniques adapt to modern cars with structural steel alloys that have to be brazed upon repair rather than welded, the process is becoming more common. For a classic car it gives a superb way of letting in new metal with a seam brazed, sealed joint. You have much less distortion than you would with a weld, and a joint that does not require lead filler (or glass fibre filler) to seal it. With the right setup the process is tolerant of imperfect steel, is compatible with mig weld, which conventional brazing is often not.
Whilst I understand completely that in the interests of originality lead filling has its place, it is simply filler, required after the joint has been made. Mig brazing is both structural and filler in one process, and lends itself much better to the economical letting in of new metal into a panel to be rescued and restored to a high standard.
Whilst I understand completely that in the interests of originality lead filling has its place, it is simply filler, required after the joint has been made. Mig brazing is both structural and filler in one process, and lends itself much better to the economical letting in of new metal into a panel to be rescued and restored to a high standard.
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