New to Caterhams - are Vauxhall 2.0 16v engines any good?
Discussion
Hi.
Looking at this one:
http://www.pistonheads.com/classifieds/used-cars/c...
Trying to understand about the various engine options - not many 2.0 16v engine ones in adverts - are these OK or should I avoid them? If they are OK then what should I be looking for if I am thinking about buying it?
Thanks - any help would be really useful.
Looking at this one:
http://www.pistonheads.com/classifieds/used-cars/c...
Trying to understand about the various engine options - not many 2.0 16v engine ones in adverts - are these OK or should I avoid them? If they are OK then what should I be looking for if I am thinking about buying it?
Thanks - any help would be really useful.
That's the car that had the hpc reg removed and advertised separately for about 3k lol
As a hpc owner for it to be worth anywhere near that price it would have to be-
H on the 7th digit of the chassis number ( proper hpc has this)
Handbrake on the gearbox tunnel
The later type front suspension ( late 96 on)
Needs to be on 13" wheels
Vauxhalls are great engines- lots of torque-- don't get hung up on the front heavy thing--they make a fine cars
As a hpc owner for it to be worth anywhere near that price it would have to be-
H on the 7th digit of the chassis number ( proper hpc has this)
Handbrake on the gearbox tunnel
The later type front suspension ( late 96 on)
Needs to be on 13" wheels
Vauxhalls are great engines- lots of torque-- don't get hung up on the front heavy thing--they make a fine cars
Interesting car. How on earth did 5 owners only manage 12k miles in 17 years?
Something looks odd at the front in the pics. Maybe it's all the read and no badges, but it looks like the front swoops down. Prob my imagination.
I think 96 was the cusp of when they changed the chassis prep to stop the nasty chassis rust problems. I'd def be looking at the chassis in depth.
Also it's post HPC when Caterham were doing the VXI, but dug up a pile of dodgy old engines (not really dodgy) and sold some vauxhalls on carbs. That might be its roots. Nothing wrong there though.
It looks like a nice spec, tillets, jenveys, bmw diff, 15" wheels, nice and shiny. But the ad is short on detail. Need to check. Does it look widetrack from the pics? Be nice to have big brakes at the front which it probably has. As people have said, it's probably too expensive, almost too much shiny stuff added on to the wrong car. But how far does it have to go to be attractive? 14k?
If you drive it and like it, the condition is good and you can get the price to fit your tastes, why not?
Bert
Something looks odd at the front in the pics. Maybe it's all the read and no badges, but it looks like the front swoops down. Prob my imagination.
I think 96 was the cusp of when they changed the chassis prep to stop the nasty chassis rust problems. I'd def be looking at the chassis in depth.
Also it's post HPC when Caterham were doing the VXI, but dug up a pile of dodgy old engines (not really dodgy) and sold some vauxhalls on carbs. That might be its roots. Nothing wrong there though.
It looks like a nice spec, tillets, jenveys, bmw diff, 15" wheels, nice and shiny. But the ad is short on detail. Need to check. Does it look widetrack from the pics? Be nice to have big brakes at the front which it probably has. As people have said, it's probably too expensive, almost too much shiny stuff added on to the wrong car. But how far does it have to go to be attractive? 14k?
If you drive it and like it, the condition is good and you can get the price to fit your tastes, why not?
Bert
johnny7 said:
H on the 7th digit of the chassis number ( proper hpc has this)
Handbrake on the gearbox tunnel
That's a confusing couple of requirements. It's not a real HPC clearly. And did they make real ones with the handbrake on the tunnel? Also in reality the only difference between the "real" VX HPC and the carbed ones which came after is the change of badge following the row with Mr L surely?Handbrake on the gearbox tunnel
Biased I may be as I have a VX HPC but yes it is a good engine. Many refer to the C20XE engine as 'bulletproof' and unless you are Arnie Webb, it is extremely reliable. These engines lead a relatively unstressed life in a lightweight Seven.
They don't have any common issues (like the head gasket failure with the K for example) - in fact I can't think of anything you need to look out for or be aware of with these engines. Oh actually from experience, if you go for the car make sure the foam sump baffle has been regularly replaced or at least inspect it soon after. Mine had turned to seaweed and was lucky it didn't damage the engine.
The only thing to note about that car is that the red spark plug cover is a Vauxhall one, rather than a Caterham one (which reads "Caterham - Vauxhall") - which leads me to wonder if the engine didn't come from Caterham themselves. The car may have been bought as engine not supplied - chassis will tell you this with an 'NS' in the number.
Again not necessarily something to be a worry (people do it all the time even now with Duratecs) as long as you know what you are looking at but just make sure it has the correct sump. Caterham revised the sump to ensure it had ground clearance.
Anyway, the best thing about the engine is the torque and grunt on offer, makes it very drivable with great acceleration in any gear. You don't have to rev the engine to get the best from it like you would do a K-series so engine choice often comes down to driving preferences.
Also I agree about the heavy front end comment where I understand the right set up can pretty much negate any weight induced incline to understeer - particularly if the car has wide track suspension.
Cheers
SS
They don't have any common issues (like the head gasket failure with the K for example) - in fact I can't think of anything you need to look out for or be aware of with these engines. Oh actually from experience, if you go for the car make sure the foam sump baffle has been regularly replaced or at least inspect it soon after. Mine had turned to seaweed and was lucky it didn't damage the engine.
The only thing to note about that car is that the red spark plug cover is a Vauxhall one, rather than a Caterham one (which reads "Caterham - Vauxhall") - which leads me to wonder if the engine didn't come from Caterham themselves. The car may have been bought as engine not supplied - chassis will tell you this with an 'NS' in the number.
Again not necessarily something to be a worry (people do it all the time even now with Duratecs) as long as you know what you are looking at but just make sure it has the correct sump. Caterham revised the sump to ensure it had ground clearance.
Anyway, the best thing about the engine is the torque and grunt on offer, makes it very drivable with great acceleration in any gear. You don't have to rev the engine to get the best from it like you would do a K-series so engine choice often comes down to driving preferences.
Also I agree about the heavy front end comment where I understand the right set up can pretty much negate any weight induced incline to understeer - particularly if the car has wide track suspension.
Cheers
SS
snapper seven said:
Many refer to the C20XE engine as 'bulletproof' and unless you are Arnie Webb, it is extremely reliable.
I have no idea what that sentence means. It's useful to nobody.With respect to use in a Caterham, the Vauxhall engine is heavy and lethargic in terms of rotary inertia. This makes it feel torquey, but the reality is that with its massively heavy flywheel and crank, it just stores inertia. The engine is some 30+kgs heavier than alternatives, and in the Caterham installation it sits too far forward in the chassis, making for huge amounts of understeer. The Westfield installation is far better in this respect. Unless you throw lots of money at it to lighten reciprocating masses and hence lighten the engine overall. 20kgs can be shaved off with a decent steel crank and flywheel with a 5.5" clutch. When you get to this level you are playing in the space of doubling the output of the engine and increasing its max RPM by 2000+ More weight can be lost if you use an alloy block, but these have often been found to be porous. you are better off machining all the unneeded lugs and ribs off the standard block.
Using such race components which are not always designed with durability in mind, means reliability becomes an issue. Those little clutches only last 3000 road miles, and that is with careful use.
The understeer can be addressed with some significant suspension mods, but again this is not a small cost.
If you only want a road car, the Vauxhall engined cars are OK. For track use, a K is a better option if only for the reason they handle so much better out of the box.
Finally a powerful Vauxhall engined car will destroy the chassis unless it is in a post 1996 chassis and has at least the additional the diff suppports.
When my car was broken up post prang, the above was the basis for not rebuilding.
Well I have a vx seven and have had for ten years. To me it is the best engine in a seven. The duratec is the modern equivelant but the exhaust is on the wrong side :-)
Choose whatever wheel size you like and with the right spring and damper rate you will have a great ride and great handling with no under steer.
The engines are reliable, may not be so revvy but are great loaded up touring and on track. At the end of the day a seven is a personal thing so it is up to you.
This car appears to be narrow track and those seats are....interesting.
Would I buy a vx seven again, absolutely, would I like it 20kg lighter, yes but it is not a show stopper.
Choose whatever wheel size you like and with the right spring and damper rate you will have a great ride and great handling with no under steer.
The engines are reliable, may not be so revvy but are great loaded up touring and on track. At the end of the day a seven is a personal thing so it is up to you.
This car appears to be narrow track and those seats are....interesting.
Would I buy a vx seven again, absolutely, would I like it 20kg lighter, yes but it is not a show stopper.
Mavic82 said:
Well I have a vx seven and have had for ten years. To me it is the best engine in a seven. )
Agreed. Too remeniscent of Westfields with Pinto engines.Mavic82 said:
Choose whatever wheel size you like and with the right spring and damper rate you will have a great ride and great handling with no under steer.
Er No. A VX will ALWAYS understeer, unless you fit very wide track front suspension, and set masses of toe out at the rear. Wheel sizes - the primitive nature of the suspension means that 45 series tyres on 16" rims (which are not available in any properly soft compounds)and whihc are very hard to get heat into also means understeer will be the predominant handling characteristic. Mavic82 said:
The engines are reliable, may not be so revvy but are great loaded up touring and on track.
A quick engine is no use on track unless you have the chassis to exploit it. A lightly modified VX (arp rod bolts, sporty cams) is more revvy than a K-Series. Witness the JPE - 8250rpm. Yes it had Cossie pistons, but that was only to accommodate the valve cutouts.Mavic82 said:
At the end of the day a seven is a personal thing so it is up to you.
AgreedMavic82 said:
This car appears to be narrow track and those seats are....interesting.
Wide track has a huge effect on reducing understeer on a VX, taking it from laughable to barely tolerable. Would I buy a VX seven again? No.
Mavic82 said:
Well I have a vx seven and have had for ten years. To me it is the best engine in a seven. )
Agreed. Too remeniscent of Westfields with Pinto engines.Mavic82 said:
Choose whatever wheel size you like and with the right spring and damper rate you will have a great ride and great handling with no under steer.
Er No. A VX will ALWAYS understeer, unless you fit very wide track front suspension, and set masses of toe out at the rear. Wheel sizes - the primitive nature of the suspension means that 45 series tyres on 16" rims (which are not available in any properly soft compounds)and whihc are very hard to get heat into also means understeer will be the predominant handling characteristic. Mavic82 said:
The engines are reliable, may not be so revvy but are great loaded up touring and on track.
A quick engine is no use on track unless you have the chassis to exploit it. A lightly modified VX (arp rod bolts, sporty cams) is more revvy than a K-Series. Witness the JPE - 8250rpm. Yes it had Cossie pistons, but that was only to accommodate the valve cutouts.Mavic82 said:
At the end of the day a seven is a personal thing so it is up to you.
AgreedMavic82 said:
This car appears to be narrow track and those seats are....interesting.
Wide track has a huge effect on reducing understeer on a VX, taking it from laughable to barely tolerable. Would I buy a VX seven again? No.
As you can see, it's a love or hate relation. Nothing in between.
For me it's a love relation, but I did all the stuff some people mention here above.
Wide track, adjustable dampers, lighter crank, flywheel and clutch, lightened the block, added the Spiess F3 timing belt train, Omega pistons, lightweight valvetrain. steel rods, etc,etc, Now revs to 9000 with no problem, run under 1:50 on the local track with road tires, yes 16", where the westfield cup runs 1:58 on slicks.
I lose speed on turning in, but gain so much more on out of corner acceleration, that for me it's worth the understeer.
If you're used to mid engined cars, you will be able to deal with it and set the car for the corner.
A short while ago I remounted an adjustable front ARB in combination with a rear ARB. This works good except for the wet when I disconnect the front and stiffen the rear a bit.
Last thing on my list will be the aluminium QED block. The here say about porous block are from the very early ones, but they have the Millington name on it now. For me that's enough.
Still no comparison with my Westfield XTR2 in handling and track times, but way better on holiday trips with the misses. Next year with aeroscreen!
Oh, and my co-director offered me £25000 for it this summer. I nicely declined. Not for sale.
For me it's a love relation, but I did all the stuff some people mention here above.
Wide track, adjustable dampers, lighter crank, flywheel and clutch, lightened the block, added the Spiess F3 timing belt train, Omega pistons, lightweight valvetrain. steel rods, etc,etc, Now revs to 9000 with no problem, run under 1:50 on the local track with road tires, yes 16", where the westfield cup runs 1:58 on slicks.
I lose speed on turning in, but gain so much more on out of corner acceleration, that for me it's worth the understeer.
If you're used to mid engined cars, you will be able to deal with it and set the car for the corner.
A short while ago I remounted an adjustable front ARB in combination with a rear ARB. This works good except for the wet when I disconnect the front and stiffen the rear a bit.
Last thing on my list will be the aluminium QED block. The here say about porous block are from the very early ones, but they have the Millington name on it now. For me that's enough.
Still no comparison with my Westfield XTR2 in handling and track times, but way better on holiday trips with the misses. Next year with aeroscreen!
Oh, and my co-director offered me £25000 for it this summer. I nicely declined. Not for sale.
Edited by harry b on Tuesday 8th October 17:29
Indeed a seven is an individual thing. I think in the main I agree with Annie but for me I would never own a k series or a zetec and probably a duratec but that is just me.
TT
Er No. A VX will ALWAYS understeer, unless you fit very wide track front suspension, and set masses of toe out at the rear. Wheel sizes - the primitive nature of the suspension means that 45 series tyres on 16" rims (which are not available in any properly soft compounds)and whihc are very hard to get heat into also means understeer will be the predominant handling characteristic.
I don't agree mine does not, yes I have very wide track suspension but that was my point (all be it with out mentioning the track width). Set the suspension up right and it will work. In narrow format certainly it will under steer. I also run 16" wheels and tyre choice is narrow but I have a combination I am happy with. This car has caterham 15" wheels and cr500 which I must admit are a good road tyre as they are light.
TT
A quick engine is no use on track unless you have the chassis to exploit it. A lightly modified VX (arp rod bolts, sporty cams) is more revvy than a K-Series. Witness the JPE - 8250rpm. Yes it had Cossie pistons, but that was only to accommodate the valve cutouts.
So to qualify, I was referring to a standard engine, with minimal mods they will rev well. But still produce bags of torque which gets you out of the corners quick. Yes you need the handling sorted to capitalise but that does not mean you can not have fun on track with the same car you just went touring with. Generally without heavy modification I would say the engine is more durable than a k series, certainly if you were to compare engines of similar output.
My concern with the car in the add is it looks to be narrow track and on hard springs. To get the handling heading the right way the spring rates would need changing and wide track fitting.
In the end, go look at it, drive it and see what you think.
TT
Er No. A VX will ALWAYS understeer, unless you fit very wide track front suspension, and set masses of toe out at the rear. Wheel sizes - the primitive nature of the suspension means that 45 series tyres on 16" rims (which are not available in any properly soft compounds)and whihc are very hard to get heat into also means understeer will be the predominant handling characteristic.
I don't agree mine does not, yes I have very wide track suspension but that was my point (all be it with out mentioning the track width). Set the suspension up right and it will work. In narrow format certainly it will under steer. I also run 16" wheels and tyre choice is narrow but I have a combination I am happy with. This car has caterham 15" wheels and cr500 which I must admit are a good road tyre as they are light.
TT
A quick engine is no use on track unless you have the chassis to exploit it. A lightly modified VX (arp rod bolts, sporty cams) is more revvy than a K-Series. Witness the JPE - 8250rpm. Yes it had Cossie pistons, but that was only to accommodate the valve cutouts.
So to qualify, I was referring to a standard engine, with minimal mods they will rev well. But still produce bags of torque which gets you out of the corners quick. Yes you need the handling sorted to capitalise but that does not mean you can not have fun on track with the same car you just went touring with. Generally without heavy modification I would say the engine is more durable than a k series, certainly if you were to compare engines of similar output.
My concern with the car in the add is it looks to be narrow track and on hard springs. To get the handling heading the right way the spring rates would need changing and wide track fitting.
In the end, go look at it, drive it and see what you think.
This post mentions changes in the chassis around 1996.
I've found a 1996 car to look at and as it's miles away, wanted to prepare myself a little.
- What is the mention change to the chassis? To do with longevity? To do with Strength? ...? ...?
- The car I'm looking at is LHD (I'm currently in Europe) with injection fuelling. Any comments on the fuelling?
I've found a 1996 car to look at and as it's miles away, wanted to prepare myself a little.
- What is the mention change to the chassis? To do with longevity? To do with Strength? ...? ...?
- The car I'm looking at is LHD (I'm currently in Europe) with injection fuelling. Any comments on the fuelling?
Around 1996, the hand brake was moved from its traditional silly position under the scuttle in the passenger's footwell to the more normal position in the transmission tunnel. This required significant changes to the chassis in and around the tunell area as there was now a cut out slot in the tunnel aluminium skinning to allow the hand brake to be installed. In a Seven, the aluminium panelling provides some of the structural strengthening.
I also think around that time that thicker aluminium honeycombing was used for the panelling.
I also think around that time that thicker aluminium honeycombing was used for the panelling.
Hi James, the post 96 chassis, with central handbrake are significantly stiffer than the earlier cars as quite a lot of changes were made to the chassis ate this time and all of which is an improvement. Not only was the chassis stiffened but the front suspension pick up points were changed to give an anti dive feature. VX 7's with these later chassis are quite few and far between and are worth quite a bit more than the earlier types.
If it's on injection, does it have the horrible standard factory setup or is it on Jenvey throttle bodies? Even if on the standard single plenum Vauhall set up, this could be a good basis for a nice spec car, given some decent upgrades.
VX 7's make great cars, bags of torque and power with a proven and reliable unit. Don't listen to Arnies ranting above, he was a massive advocate of VX's until he crashed his and ended up with a K series.
If it's on injection, does it have the horrible standard factory setup or is it on Jenvey throttle bodies? Even if on the standard single plenum Vauhall set up, this could be a good basis for a nice spec car, given some decent upgrades.
VX 7's make great cars, bags of torque and power with a proven and reliable unit. Don't listen to Arnies ranting above, he was a massive advocate of VX's until he crashed his and ended up with a K series.
Thanks guys.
I was looking at an older X-flow, but I live in Austria, and am not the best spanner man. Whilst speaking to some people here they suggested an HPC as still having the old school looks, but much easier to look after. Kind of made sense.
The one I've found doesn't have the clamshells, so not quite the old school looks, but is in a colour scheme I like (green & yellow stripe).
I figure as a road car motors with a bit more torque might be useful for overtaking, even if they aren't the fastest on the track.
K series I decided I'm not so keen on. Not only are there no 7 specialists nearby, but there were never many Rovers on the road, so spares or even dealer service would be tough to find.
So things to check are:
- Central handbrake as indication of stiffer chassis
- I read about a soft part in the sump, that might be worth a 200 pound upgrade to ensure the motor doesn't blow
- The single plenum. (The guy said it's not had it's ECU reprogrammed yet, which would be a 200 pound 30 BHP upgrade, so I guess the hardware won't have been upgraded yet either.)
What about wide front track. Seems to be a big push for that. Did the newer cars with the central handbrake and anti dive geometry already have that?
Anything else I should keep my eyes open for?
I was looking at an older X-flow, but I live in Austria, and am not the best spanner man. Whilst speaking to some people here they suggested an HPC as still having the old school looks, but much easier to look after. Kind of made sense.
The one I've found doesn't have the clamshells, so not quite the old school looks, but is in a colour scheme I like (green & yellow stripe).
I figure as a road car motors with a bit more torque might be useful for overtaking, even if they aren't the fastest on the track.
K series I decided I'm not so keen on. Not only are there no 7 specialists nearby, but there were never many Rovers on the road, so spares or even dealer service would be tough to find.
So things to check are:
- Central handbrake as indication of stiffer chassis
- I read about a soft part in the sump, that might be worth a 200 pound upgrade to ensure the motor doesn't blow
- The single plenum. (The guy said it's not had it's ECU reprogrammed yet, which would be a 200 pound 30 BHP upgrade, so I guess the hardware won't have been upgraded yet either.)
What about wide front track. Seems to be a big push for that. Did the newer cars with the central handbrake and anti dive geometry already have that?
Anything else I should keep my eyes open for?
culminator said:
Hi James, the post 96 chassis, with central handbrake are significantly stiffer than the earlier cars as quite a lot of changes were made to the chassis ate this time and all of which is an improvement. Not only was the chassis stiffened but the front suspension pick up points were changed to give an anti dive feature. VX 7's with these later chassis are quite few and far between and are worth quite a bit more than the earlier types.
If it's on injection, does it have the horrible standard factory setup or is it on Jenvey throttle bodies? Even if on the standard single plenum Vauhall set up, this could be a good basis for a nice spec car, given some decent upgrades.
VX 7's make great cars, bags of torque and power with a proven and reliable unit. Don't listen to Arnies ranting above, he was a massive advocate of VX's until he crashed his and ended up with a K series.
Hi MikeIf it's on injection, does it have the horrible standard factory setup or is it on Jenvey throttle bodies? Even if on the standard single plenum Vauhall set up, this could be a good basis for a nice spec car, given some decent upgrades.
VX 7's make great cars, bags of torque and power with a proven and reliable unit. Don't listen to Arnies ranting above, he was a massive advocate of VX's until he crashed his and ended up with a K series.
if the later chassis was stiffer why did the Racer's stick wit the older chassis for some Years?
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