TVR Kettle - Help!

[AndrewS2]

Hi All,

Beginning to get frustrated...even once yesterday I threatened to sell yesterday

So - having solved my starting problems a few weeks ago, car had been running perfect. I went away for a week, and when I came back and started the car for the first time, drove it a couple of miles and noticed the temp had hit the red zone so I stopped.

Symptoms are as follows:

1) Starts OK, runs perfect
2) From cold, idling with bonnet closed takes about 5-10 mins to reach the usual 90 degrees mark
3) Keeps climing - boils water in swirl pot, sends excess water into expansion tank and eventually to floor
4) Radiator remains cold, fan does not come on
5) Pipe from swirl pot to water pump, and to thermostat are red hot
6) Pipe from pump to radiator remains cold

My initial thought (hope) after consulting my bible was to replace the thermostat. I've done this, however, when I replaced the housing one of the bolts sheered on tightening and it hasn't sealed properly. In addition I removed and checked all the pipes for blockages and found nothing. Refilled. tested aand made no difference apart from now it leaks from the thermostat housing!!

I also don't think I'm getting a great seal from the swirl pot cap, so I'm going to order one of those.

I'm now thinking the water pump is favourite though? Anyone experienced similar symptoms? How easy/difficult is the pump to replace?

As always your opinions would be much appreciated!!!

Andrew

P.S. MR PHILPOT - all the pipes need replacing too... I've seen the thread with the cooling system diagram and part numbers on, but it refers to TVR Car Parts....where did you source your lovely blue ones from?

[Griffinr]

System could be air locked as I would expect some heat at the rad even if the thermostat failed as the bypass hose passes a lot of water. It does not take much air to upset the cooling system, you definately need to sort the leaks. Failed water pump is also a possibility, I have heard of impellers falling off but I don't know if that's a problem with the S engine. Wouldn't rule out a duff thermostat either.
Rob.

Edited for typo's.

Edited by Griffinr on Wednesday 28th August 13:50

[Smokey Boyer]

I had similar problems, and it does sound like you have an air lock. All pipes getting hot as expected, but not cooling that well.

Only got the car in May, and decided to flush and refill the coolant a few weeks ago. Since that, had problems with the car spitting water of the expansion tank out and getting hot. It even managed to chuck all the water out on one occasion.

Anyway, I eventually realised the new rad had been fitted upside down by the previous owner, so there was no way of bleeding the radiator. Turned this around so the hole was at the top, and acting as an air bleed rather than a water drain. Flushed a refiled again, and it is loads better.

I also had problems, I think, with the swirl pot cap not sealing properly, and this is essential for the system to work. Fitted a rubber seal in addition to the metal washer and that also helped. Without that sealing correctly, I THINK the system sucks air back in as it cools, rather than water from the expansion tank.

[Son of Flinny]

Sounds like an airlock to me as well.

Bleed the rad from the butterfly nut on the top (until fluid comes out).
Top up from the swirl pot.
Switch the fans (heater) on
run the engine with the swirl pot cap off, topping up as you go. When you can't get anymore in without it overflowing stick the lid on.

If there's an airlock, that should do it. I kept getting air into my system. Solved it with a slightly higher pressure cap on the swirl pot (not opening the which way round discussion).

Oh how I miss my S.

[phillpot]

AndrewS2 said:

P.S. MR PHILPOT - all the pipes need replacing too... I've seen the thread with the cooling system diagram and part numbers on, but it refers to TVR Car Parts....where did you source your lovely blue ones from?

Not me, I am not a fan of blue hoses!

Mine are all silicone, but black as hoses should be put together from bits 'n pieces bought from Ebay.

Going back to your problem, as others have said, you'll get nowhere till leak is fixed and then bleed the radiator.

[v8s4me]

AndrewS2 said:

..........I'm now thinking the water pump is favourite though? Anyone experienced similar symptoms? How easy/difficult is the pump to replace?.

It can be done in a car park

[Scoobimax]

Aye up Andrew,

Water pump is a synch - I did it (with a little guidance) so it must be simple. As you know I've had cooling problems since 2011 when the car stayed longer than me in Germany and even fixing the header that caused the breakdown i still didn't bottom it until this year.

I've now got:
- Bass MG header tank;
- New re-cored rad as it was on its last legs but not actually leaking;
- New water pump - slightest dribble but bearings seem ok on the old one;
- New otter switch;
- Rad fan manual over ride switch.

However, i think the the two major causes of my cooling woes were:
- Poor seal on the swirl pot - fixed by crimping the lugs a little bit on the cap and cleaning the neck on the swirl pot with a bit of wet and dry; and cleaning the rubber seal in the cap itself similarly;
- Rad fan not actually working/cutting in when needed - fixed with a new otter switch and wired in manual over ride switch for when I get paranoid; and replacing the last connector just before the fan motor.
- getting the caps the right way round on swirl pot & header tank - it was bound to come up so may as well be me. My set up is pressure cap on swirl pot and blanking cap on header. It works for me and is the majority wisdom in most paces. Cooling was a source of debate on the harsh Alps passes and this set up seemed to work on those having water issues.

So far after some very severe driving experiences the year (EuroTour & a track day) I've not had any problems. Long may it continue.

I too would like some blue silicon hoses but while the current ones aren't broke, I'm not fixing them plus I have other things to spend my pennies on.

Hope that's useful - pm your number if you want to talk anything through and I'll call you.

Max

Edited by Scoobimax on Wednesday 28th August 22:38

Edited by Scoobimax on Wednesday 28th August 22:42

[RayTVR]

All of the above. The pressure cap HAS to seal on the swirl pot otherwise it will boil into the expansion tank. I created the problem by changing mine - new radiator caps don't have the rubber seal so I had to close up the tabs to get a better seal AND fit a seal cut from a cycle inner tube. Once this was sorted and all the air out should run fine.

[chiefyo]

I back up previous comments bleed system and seal the swirl pot before doing anything else. As regards achieving a seal on the swirl pot You state you have a rubber washer inside of the cap this needs a flat surface and good clamp action to achieve a seal. As others have mentioned check condition of swirl pot lugs also spray silicone grease on the rubber seal this will allow you to wind it down tight.

[AndrewS2]

Thanks for all the advice guys. My radiator is pretty new as I had it replaced before I agreed to buy the car (was seeping at the sides) so I'm happy thats OK. It is also upside down, so I'll bleed it as you suggest. I'm not happy with the seal on my pressure cap, so I've ordered a new one and I'll make a new seal from an inner tube as suggested. Also ordered some new bolts for the thermostat housing.

Out of interest, can any of you remember the type of seal on your thermostat? My new one was supplier with an o ring seal, like I'm used to having supplied with an oil filter, however, the one I took off had a gasket which fitted around the flange of the thermostat, purpose made. Which does everyone have? The O ring didn't seem to fit correctly, so I used the old seal but it also isn't in the greatest condition.

Found the below info, and googled/ebayed the gasket number quoted but not had much joy apart from hits on USA ebay!!

http://www.fordopedia.org/parts-catalog/24-29-v6/B...


Andrew

[steve j]

v8s4me said:

It can be done in a car park

I remember it well water pump and swirl pot cap problems, 20 minutes to change the pump.

[chiefyo]

Make a new gasket. Use gasket paper or even corn flakes box when desperate !!! Place over the face needing a gasket and tap round the edges of your item with the ball end of a small hammer this cuts your gasket to exact shape. Practice on a bit of scrap first.

[Griffinr]

AndrewS2 said:

Out of interest, can any of you remember the type of seal on your thermostat? My new one was supplier with an o ring seal, like I'm used to having supplied with an oil filter, however, the one I took off had a gasket which fitted around the flange of the thermostat, purpose made. Which does everyone have? The O ring didn't seem to fit correctly, so I used the old seal but it also isn't in the greatest condition.

Found the below info, and googled/ebayed the gasket number quoted but not had much joy apart from hits on USA ebay!!

http://www.fordopedia.org/parts-catalog/24-29-v6/B...


Andrew

Mine has an O ring, looks like an O in your link although they call it a gasket. Are you going to turn the rad up the correct way? Your problem is almost certainly due to air in the system.
Rob

[Smokey Boyer]

Assuming I have read your previous post correctly, and the radiator is upside down, in my humble opinion, unless you turn the radiator, so that the hole is top left and can be used as an air bleed, there is no easy way of getting the air out of the rad as you fill the system. Without the radiator being full of coolant in can never do a good job of cooling the engine down, even with the fans running.

It is something you can do on your own, although it did take me about 5 hours to do, due to problems caused by the radiator being in the wrong way and having to figure out how to sort that out. How the garage that fitted it thought it was correct that way is beyond me, but it does appear to be a more common fault than you would imagine. I know of three people now from recent forum posts that have had the same issue.

My problem was that with the bolts removed on the bottom mounts, there was not enough room to swing the radiator at the bottom to release the pegs from the top mounts. I had to remove the front section of the arch covers from the bonnet, and then remove the two nuts and bolts on each side of the radiator supporting frame to make the room required to get the radiator out. These nuts and bolts are just above the bonnet hinges. You may get away with just slacking them off, as there is some movement available. With the radiator out, put the nuts and bolts back in first to re-attach the frame before refitting the radiator the correct way with the pegs at the bottom, and the bolts at the top, and the air bleed valve top left as you look at it from within the engine bay. I left the frame bolts loose until the radiator was back in and then tightened everything up. I also replaced the rubber grommets on the radiator mounts as I trashed two of them getting the radiator out before I realised I had to loosen the frame.

When refilling the system, open the heater matrix valve (heater controls to hot), take both caps off the swirl and expansion tank, and open the air bleed screw, On my radiator this is a normal mushroom head allen key bolt, so has to be removed completely. I will try and find a proper air bleed screw that fits which should make the job easier next time I have to bleed the air out. I did put a household tap washer on the bolt to replace the flimsy fibre washer it had before. The washer fits tight on the bolt and gives you something a bit bigger to hold when you are trying to get the bolt back in with water coming out of the hole. So with all caps off, start filling the system via the swirl pot. Eventually you will get coolant coming out of the radiator air bleed - this is the time to put the bolt back in. Continue filling the system until the swirl pot is full. Put some water in to the expansion tank (about 1/3). Start the engine. The coolant level in the swirl pot will drop, so add more coolant until it is full. You will need approximately 10L of coolant to fill the system. Put both caps back on, and run the car until it gets hot and the radiator fans kick in. Switch the engine off and leave the car to cool down. You may well get some water overflow out of the expansion tank overflow pipe as the engine cools. Leave the engine until it is cold, and check the water level in both the swirl pot and expansion tank. Assuming the expansion tank still has some water in, the swirl pot should be full. If the swirl pot is still full, top up the expansion tank to about 1/3 to 1/2 full and you are done. If the expansion tank has coolant in but the swirl pot is not full, I think this means the seal on the swirl pot cap is not tight and this need sorting. Completely filling the expansion tank is futile, but it does need some water in as far as I know. When cold mine is about 1/3 full. After the next few runs, wait for the car to cool, and check the levels in the swirl pot and expansion tank. You may also want to loosen the air bleed screw to satisfy yourself that there is no air back in the radiator. I found this was most effectively done as the car warms up from cold, but not when it is hot as you get scolded by a jet of hot water. Once all the air is out, the system will find its own level, and stop spitting water out as it cools down.

As far as coolant goes I use a 50% mix of red OAT coolant (Halfords Advanced Coolant - £25 for 5Litres which gives you the 10L litres of mixed coolant you need). I mixed it before filling.

I would also take the opportunity to flush the system, especially the radiator, while you have it empty. With that much trapped air, there is likely to be plenty of rusty water kicking around the system.

In order to get the swirl pot cap to seal, I had to add a rubber disc washer to the cap that sits inside the cap on top of the metal washer. I also had to clean and remove rust from the swirl pot lip. I also found that I got a better seal by adding some silicone grease to the rubber disc washer and swirl pot lip.


A few weeks ago, I knew very little about the TVR cooling system, but I have surprised myself as I write this how much I have learnt from other people on the PH forums. I am not claiming to be an expert, far from it, but I think I had similar problems to you, which thanks to the help and advice of others I have hopefully sorted, and therefore happy to pass on.

[pcashman]

+1 on bleeding

When I changed the hose that goes through the engine block (thread on here previously - solved with a reinforced flexible hose), my main airlock was relieved by opening up the return from the heater core and letting the engine run until water came out.

I had checked the radiator first, but water came out of the bleed screw straight away. The engine temp not registering at all which had not been an issue before! I thought maybe the electrics had failed. I only ran the car for a couple of minutes as I was worried it might get overheated and I quickly looked online for help. Following advice from this forum, I opened up the heater return and turned on the car... nothing but air for about 5 seconds then loads of coolant so I quickly slipped it back onto the connection and kept topping up the swirl pot. Touch wood, but it has been right as rain since then

As an aside, when I got the car, the pressure cap was on the swirl pot. After a drive, I always found the swirl pot water level about 1/3 empty. After reading the pro's and con's, I swapped caps so that the pressure cap is on the overflow tank (seal cap on the swirl pot). Now my water level in the swirl pot stays where I fill it to (about 2-3 inches from the top) and if I look at the overflow tank, the level rises and falls depending on whether the engine is hot or not.....

[v8s4me]

pcashman said:

.........As an aside, when I got the car, the pressure cap was on the swirl pot. After a drive, I always found the swirl pot water level about 1/3 empty. .....

That's probably because you have the type of pressure cap which doesn't have a return valve allowing coolant to flow back into the swirl pot when it cools. If it works as it is now, leave it alone

[Top Gear TVR]

v8s4me said:

That's probably because you have the type of pressure cap which doesn't have a return valve allowing coolant to flow back into the swirl pot when it cools. If it works as it is now, leave it alone

Very true or a poor seal on the cap top seal of the swirl pot, or neck hose going to the header tank.

I would go with a damn good flush with a hose through the rad both ways, cure leaks, fill up, turnover for 20 seconds, top up, run up with caps off, rev to 1500 / 2000 revs occasionally, top up as you go, turn off, fit caps, anally check pressure cap top seal on pot, run up checking pipes get warm to rad, once warming up throughout run up road for a few miles (5 ish), come home turn iff and cool, check pot level in morning, should be full, if not top up once and try again. If not holding water level there's a leak and mostly it's the pot neck.

I had; new heater matrix, new rad, new pot, new pipes, new stainless pipes, new header tank, new pump. Over cools now! Bypass alteration planned for this winter!

If you want to chat about it, email a number. I too had moments of dispair!

[AndrewS2]

Success!!!!

Fortunately - the bolt that sheered from the thermostat housing was poking out of the block, so managed to persuade that out with mole grips.

Turns out my radiator is the correct way up ( I was just bring thick ). The bleed screw took some releasing oil, sweat, swearing and elbow grease but finally managed to get it to undo - as you guys predicted, it let out a load of air! Filled back up but still didn't have a good seal on the thermostat housing, so had to take back off again.

Bought a bicycle inner tube (large) and cut open - just used a stanley knife to shape it in to a gasket between the thermostat housing and the block. Managed to get it to stay in position and bolted back up. Broke a few more jubilee clips over-tightening them again (more swearing) but now have a seal on all the pipes. Bit of fiddling with the swirl pot lid and used the above filling advice (fill up, start, keep topping up and bleed through the top of the rad).

And it works! Now stays at a good 90 degrees and fan kicks in at the right time. Will be using daily so plenty of work for the next couple of months for it to do and will keep checking for drips...

So - final questions...

1) It gets pretty hot between the thermostat housing and the block... Reckon there'll be any issue with me melting my new gasket?? I'm guessing this would just result in a rather unpleasant smell and then a leak?

2) When I come to completely drain the system (before winter to make sure I have the right % of coolant after all this filling and draining!!), is there no way of completely emptying the radiator without taking it off the car? How much remains in the radiator when the bottom hose is off?


To make it better I definitely need all new pipes, so will keep looking out on ebay, and the thermostat housing is really past its best so will look out of a replacement. Plus, over the winter I'm going to take off the swirl pot and either replace it with a stainless one or give it a good rub down and paint it.

Fingers crossed it keeps working so I can see as many of you as possible at Back Home 2013!!!!

Again thanks everyone for all the great advice - I couldn't keep this car without all of you on this forum, I'm learning a LOT!!!

Andrew