C2RS - here at last
Discussion
Well, I finally have my pinkeys on the 964RS. And overall, it is everything I imagined it to be, and I am v happy with my choice. Specific impressions below:
- It isn't as harsh a ride as I thought and not as difficult a 911 to drive as I thought... clutch is 'definite' but not too sharp or grabby and steering isn't too heavy without PAS. Jiggles over road ripples and can skip on bumps - even take off on large bumps at high speed, so caution needed, but overall quite usable. Clears most speed humps without any problem, despite lack of ground clearance.
- It doesn't feel as Porsche-like as a 993, say, or even a 944 S2, when it comes to the feeling of build quality and luxuriousness. The doors shut with a clang not a thud, and where the fuel pump hums in a 993 at start up, in an RS it sounds like you have poked a hornets nest. One or two more squeaks and rattles than normal. Lower weight, lack of sound proofing are to blame - make it feel like a Caterham really. More dynamic in character but less refined and less posh. I can see why they didn't sell many new from showrooms in 1992 as it would seem you were getting much less for 10k more, even if the car is much better performance-wise.
- Engine wise, it is a lovely unit, and whizzes up to 6.5k sweetly, getting quicker and quicker towards the red band. Picks up after 3.5-4k revs. V lightweight flywheel. You can catch it off cam if you're not careful, but in the powerband it feels v quick. Lots of torque, and you're a brave man to keep it nailed to the red line in fourth as it gets quicker and quicker, as the clear road ahead gets shorter and shorter... It feels a fraction quicker than a standard 993 C2 and is quick enough under most circumstances, but I will consider a 320bhp Motec conversion.
- Handling wise, has big Caterham feeling, but Caterham still marginally ahead. Ride is better than a seven, though, and the 911 is far more practical. You have to be v careful in the wet - you can feel that the tail will wag the dog if you're not alert. Plenty of power oversteer as well. Scottster drove it and reckoned it made his 993 felt kind of big boned in comparison - RS is just that much more nimble.
- Engine note is good, but I really fancy a sports exhaust as well as cat bypass. Scottster's sports exhaust 993 sounds arguably as good - not as rabid but more bassy. Needs a K and N filter as well.
So all in all, I am v happy - looks nice in new Guard's Red paintwork, too. I think it grows on you, and it's fairly unmissable. PH sticker in the rear window, so wave/flash if you see me and I'm going slow enough to see you
Cheers
Domster
>>> Edited by domster on Monday 8th July 10:17
- It isn't as harsh a ride as I thought and not as difficult a 911 to drive as I thought... clutch is 'definite' but not too sharp or grabby and steering isn't too heavy without PAS. Jiggles over road ripples and can skip on bumps - even take off on large bumps at high speed, so caution needed, but overall quite usable. Clears most speed humps without any problem, despite lack of ground clearance.
- It doesn't feel as Porsche-like as a 993, say, or even a 944 S2, when it comes to the feeling of build quality and luxuriousness. The doors shut with a clang not a thud, and where the fuel pump hums in a 993 at start up, in an RS it sounds like you have poked a hornets nest. One or two more squeaks and rattles than normal. Lower weight, lack of sound proofing are to blame - make it feel like a Caterham really. More dynamic in character but less refined and less posh. I can see why they didn't sell many new from showrooms in 1992 as it would seem you were getting much less for 10k more, even if the car is much better performance-wise.
- Engine wise, it is a lovely unit, and whizzes up to 6.5k sweetly, getting quicker and quicker towards the red band. Picks up after 3.5-4k revs. V lightweight flywheel. You can catch it off cam if you're not careful, but in the powerband it feels v quick. Lots of torque, and you're a brave man to keep it nailed to the red line in fourth as it gets quicker and quicker, as the clear road ahead gets shorter and shorter... It feels a fraction quicker than a standard 993 C2 and is quick enough under most circumstances, but I will consider a 320bhp Motec conversion.
- Handling wise, has big Caterham feeling, but Caterham still marginally ahead. Ride is better than a seven, though, and the 911 is far more practical. You have to be v careful in the wet - you can feel that the tail will wag the dog if you're not alert. Plenty of power oversteer as well. Scottster drove it and reckoned it made his 993 felt kind of big boned in comparison - RS is just that much more nimble.
- Engine note is good, but I really fancy a sports exhaust as well as cat bypass. Scottster's sports exhaust 993 sounds arguably as good - not as rabid but more bassy. Needs a K and N filter as well.
So all in all, I am v happy - looks nice in new Guard's Red paintwork, too. I think it grows on you, and it's fairly unmissable. PH sticker in the rear window, so wave/flash if you see me and I'm going slow enough to see you
Cheers
Domster
>>> Edited by domster on Monday 8th July 10:17
After a v.quick spin on Friday night I agree it's a great drive.
If the lack of refinement isn't your cup of tea then you've simply bought the wrong car, this is a good street racer not a comfy seven series beemer and it really feels it. Still, for Dom and me that's exactly the stuff we like. You get bored of a pretty missus very quickly if she's dull in the sack, but you can excuse her face looking rough if she'll let you treat her like a whore - and the RS loves to be treated like that!!
Makes my 993 feel very tardy indeed, speed wise you wouldn't (although Domdisagrees I'm sure) notice lots of diference but the 964 defo feels loads more nimble and subsequently picks up quicker and feels better. Still, that's what you get with all the luxuries removed.
Reminded me once again how the 'comfy' Porsches aren't really my cup of tea. As Dom will agree, bring on the new house with a good sized garage to build an Ultima and I'll be in heaven. After driving the RS on Fri and seeing an Ultima on Sat I can't wait.
If the lack of refinement isn't your cup of tea then you've simply bought the wrong car, this is a good street racer not a comfy seven series beemer and it really feels it. Still, for Dom and me that's exactly the stuff we like. You get bored of a pretty missus very quickly if she's dull in the sack, but you can excuse her face looking rough if she'll let you treat her like a whore - and the RS loves to be treated like that!!
Makes my 993 feel very tardy indeed, speed wise you wouldn't (although Domdisagrees I'm sure) notice lots of diference but the 964 defo feels loads more nimble and subsequently picks up quicker and feels better. Still, that's what you get with all the luxuries removed.
Reminded me once again how the 'comfy' Porsches aren't really my cup of tea. As Dom will agree, bring on the new house with a good sized garage to build an Ultima and I'll be in heaven. After driving the RS on Fri and seeing an Ultima on Sat I can't wait.
domster,
Fantastic news mate, I am really pleased for you. Was it guards red before or has it had a complete colour change?
Who are you going to use for your Motec upgrade, i'm going with Colin at 930 motorsport for having mine supercharged next year (or when the divorce is finalised!!).
Must arrange a meet again soon, so you can show us your new motor (and take me out for a spin!!)
Anyway, in a couple of hours i'm way again until end of week (as per usual lately) so catch you at end of week.
Regards and congrats again
Pac
Fantastic news mate, I am really pleased for you. Was it guards red before or has it had a complete colour change?
Who are you going to use for your Motec upgrade, i'm going with Colin at 930 motorsport for having mine supercharged next year (or when the divorce is finalised!!).
Must arrange a meet again soon, so you can show us your new motor (and take me out for a spin!!)
Anyway, in a couple of hours i'm way again until end of week (as per usual lately) so catch you at end of week.
Regards and congrats again
Pac
Cheers guys. PAC, yeah, we will defo have to meet up. The car was guards red originally, should have got it changed to maritime blue and made 4k on the resale 
I will get Colin to do Motec (again, next year probably), could supercharge it but out of character for an RS. Besides 320bhp normally aspirated will be handy, although not 360bhp of supercharged engine. If you fancy my B10VVN plate for a small discount, let me know - depends on how much the missus costs you in the divorce I suppose...
Re the 993 C2 vs 964RS, having put more miles on the 964 it doesn't feel that quick - certainly not massively quicker than Scottster's 993. If it is quicker (and then only by a small margin) it will be because the engine has less of a flat power curve. The RS seems to get quicker and quicker, whereas the 993 is much more linear. Also, the RS is noisier with it, so sounds like you're going quicker. I haven't had it above 115mph yet as it feels like you're charging down the Mulsanne straight at twice the speed
PS Imelda - I checked that MR2 plate, it is R4OER with a bolt on the O. Cheeky bastards aren't they!
>> Edited by domster on Monday 8th July 10:51
I will get Colin to do Motec (again, next year probably), could supercharge it but out of character for an RS. Besides 320bhp normally aspirated will be handy, although not 360bhp of supercharged engine. If you fancy my B10VVN plate for a small discount, let me know - depends on how much the missus costs you in the divorce I suppose...
Re the 993 C2 vs 964RS, having put more miles on the 964 it doesn't feel that quick - certainly not massively quicker than Scottster's 993. If it is quicker (and then only by a small margin) it will be because the engine has less of a flat power curve. The RS seems to get quicker and quicker, whereas the 993 is much more linear. Also, the RS is noisier with it, so sounds like you're going quicker. I haven't had it above 115mph yet as it feels like you're charging down the Mulsanne straight at twice the speed
PS Imelda - I checked that MR2 plate, it is R4OER with a bolt on the O. Cheeky bastards aren't they!
>> Edited by domster on Monday 8th July 10:51
Domster,
Glad you like the RS. If you want to power up your RS without going to the full Motec mod. Consider the following. Cup bypass exhaust, K&N filter, drilled airbox, upgraded chip and matching larger throttle body (All available from 930). I've not had may car on a dyno but Colin at 930 reckons these changes result in around 285 bhp. Car has alot more torque with these mods and will happily out pull a standard 964 RS/993 C2 or even a 4.5 Chimp.
If your thinking about a cat bypass, bear in mind this could cause you some real problems if your planning any track days. A cup bypass exhaust is approx 101 db, a cat bypass is up around 106db. That rules out most venues in the UK.
Glad you like the RS. If you want to power up your RS without going to the full Motec mod. Consider the following. Cup bypass exhaust, K&N filter, drilled airbox, upgraded chip and matching larger throttle body (All available from 930). I've not had may car on a dyno but Colin at 930 reckons these changes result in around 285 bhp. Car has alot more torque with these mods and will happily out pull a standard 964 RS/993 C2 or even a 4.5 Chimp.
If your thinking about a cat bypass, bear in mind this could cause you some real problems if your planning any track days. A cup bypass exhaust is approx 101 db, a cat bypass is up around 106db. That rules out most venues in the UK.
Hi Paul, yeah, I know about the trackday regs problems. It has a Roock chip and cat bypass and was dynoed by JZ at 271bhp - it feels a fraction quicker than Scottster's 993 with 285bhp. The thing is, there is no point in doing filter and backbox without getting it rechipped to match, and then I may as well spend extra money on the Motec. You need an injector change to get much over 285-300bhp. As for the throttle body conversion, Colin said these can be good, but reckoned more for throttle response than for out and out power. Out of curiosity (most Motec conversions he has done are to cars with bigger throttle body) he suggested not to bother and see what the difference is. I suppose he reckons the gain for the cost won't be worth it.
Pete,
The fireblade finally got sorted about 30 seconds before the track was closed for the day! He'll be a Spa and is planning on being on track 9-5 continually both days.
Domster,
I'm also thinking about the Motec mod. from 930 (as is Pete). A full roll cage however is first priority.
The fireblade finally got sorted about 30 seconds before the track was closed for the day! He'll be a Spa and is planning on being on track 9-5 continually both days.
Domster,
I'm also thinking about the Motec mod. from 930 (as is Pete). A full roll cage however is first priority.
I can't imagine why you'd want a rollcage........
Bad joke
Anyway, I'll be at Spa too so will look him up when I get there. Maybe blag a passenger ride, which is sure to blunt the car's performance!!!!
Looking forward to hearing someone's unbiased opinion on the Motec upgrade; if someone else has it fitted let me know! It'd be next on the upgrade list for me; keeping to the spirit of RS-ness whilst liberating a touch more vim.
Long story but, sadly, due to one thing or another, I may be buying a house which means I will be forced to sell the RS to cover sundry expenditure. Fingers crossed for the next couple of months that it doesn't turn out to be necessary......
Bad joke
Anyway, I'll be at Spa too so will look him up when I get there. Maybe blag a passenger ride, which is sure to blunt the car's performance!!!!
Looking forward to hearing someone's unbiased opinion on the Motec upgrade; if someone else has it fitted let me know! It'd be next on the upgrade list for me; keeping to the spirit of RS-ness whilst liberating a touch more vim.
Long story but, sadly, due to one thing or another, I may be buying a house which means I will be forced to sell the RS to cover sundry expenditure. Fingers crossed for the next couple of months that it doesn't turn out to be necessary......
Hi Peter and all
I am running Michelin Sport SXs on it at the moment, but did a few miles on SO2s before swapping to the original set of mags (I collected it on a spare set of 993 Cups of the correct offset, to be used throughout the winter etc.).
I am still getting the hang of it, so haven't really noticed any subtleties between the tyres yet.
Sorry to hear you may have to sell the RS, Peter. Hope it doesn't have to go.
The base Motec price is about 1300 quid, the rest of the money is in injectors (500 quid), interface loom (400 quid) Colin's time (1000 quid) mapping it, plus a few more hundred for exhaust, filter and sensor mods (he uses a MAP sensor to smooth out the idle etc.). Once VAT is added, it isn't far off the 4k mark. Still, 320bhp should be possible, and it is a conversion in the RS spirit.
The main thing is (AFAIK), the conversion doesn't bugger up fuel consumption or wash the bores by making it run massively rich, and doesn't raise the rev limit (which could be detrimental to engine life). Other chip conversions often resort to these methods to get you a good dyno figure at the time of fitting...
I am running Michelin Sport SXs on it at the moment, but did a few miles on SO2s before swapping to the original set of mags (I collected it on a spare set of 993 Cups of the correct offset, to be used throughout the winter etc.).
I am still getting the hang of it, so haven't really noticed any subtleties between the tyres yet.
Sorry to hear you may have to sell the RS, Peter. Hope it doesn't have to go.
The base Motec price is about 1300 quid, the rest of the money is in injectors (500 quid), interface loom (400 quid) Colin's time (1000 quid) mapping it, plus a few more hundred for exhaust, filter and sensor mods (he uses a MAP sensor to smooth out the idle etc.). Once VAT is added, it isn't far off the 4k mark. Still, 320bhp should be possible, and it is a conversion in the RS spirit.
The main thing is (AFAIK), the conversion doesn't bugger up fuel consumption or wash the bores by making it run massively rich, and doesn't raise the rev limit (which could be detrimental to engine life). Other chip conversions often resort to these methods to get you a good dyno figure at the time of fitting...
The Michelins are well thought of. You will not be disappointed with them. However, SO2's are best allrounders of all.
I don't want to sell the RS but might have to simply becuase my parents, who're emigrating to France and have put a deposit down on the new property, had a buyer for their UK property that dropped out at the begining of last week. Cue lots of nervousness and stress - once paid, under French law if you back out you lose the 10%deposit which equates to £40k - until I volunteered to buy their house instead.
It's not all altruism - I need a new home and their place would be excellent value and it keeps the family home in the family - but it is a big expense that I'd need spare cash for. Hence the sale of the RS. At least I have a good excuse!
If I could keep the RS I would but, in a great piece of timing, I was reminded that the insurance premium is due very soon. Lovely! Another £2k or therabouts down the insurance drain. Yes, that is the best I can find despite having a clean licence, full NCB and no accidents.
Does anyone know if the RS now qualifies for classic car insurance (supposed to be much cheaper)? Mine was built in late '91.
>> Edited by peter_964rs on Monday 8th July 14:49
I don't want to sell the RS but might have to simply becuase my parents, who're emigrating to France and have put a deposit down on the new property, had a buyer for their UK property that dropped out at the begining of last week. Cue lots of nervousness and stress - once paid, under French law if you back out you lose the 10%deposit which equates to £40k - until I volunteered to buy their house instead.
It's not all altruism - I need a new home and their place would be excellent value and it keeps the family home in the family - but it is a big expense that I'd need spare cash for. Hence the sale of the RS. At least I have a good excuse!
If I could keep the RS I would but, in a great piece of timing, I was reminded that the insurance premium is due very soon. Lovely! Another £2k or therabouts down the insurance drain. Yes, that is the best I can find despite having a clean licence, full NCB and no accidents.
Does anyone know if the RS now qualifies for classic car insurance (supposed to be much cheaper)? Mine was built in late '91.
>> Edited by peter_964rs on Monday 8th July 14:49
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