Another lorry-1 vs cyclist-0
Discussion
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RIP to the cyclist but why is blame always put on the lorry driver? Their life is difficult enough driving something that big through London without having to worry about cyclists sticking themselves in dangerous positions. The inside of a lorry or bus at a left turn is a recipe for disaster, get in front or stay behind. The lorries don't need the extra safety, the cyclists need the instruction/common sense.
RIP to the cyclist but why is blame always put on the lorry driver? Their life is difficult enough driving something that big through London without having to worry about cyclists sticking themselves in dangerous positions. The inside of a lorry or bus at a left turn is a recipe for disaster, get in front or stay behind. The lorries don't need the extra safety, the cyclists need the instruction/common sense.
AyBee said:
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RIP to the cyclist but why is blame always put on the lorry driver? Their life is difficult enough driving something that big through London without having to worry about cyclists sticking themselves in dangerous positions. The inside of a lorry or bus at a left turn is a recipe for disaster, get in front or stay behind. The lorries don't need the extra safety, the cyclists need the instruction/common sense.
"Cyclists describe street online as 'race track'"RIP to the cyclist but why is blame always put on the lorry driver? Their life is difficult enough driving something that big through London without having to worry about cyclists sticking themselves in dangerous positions. The inside of a lorry or bus at a left turn is a recipe for disaster, get in front or stay behind. The lorries don't need the extra safety, the cyclists need the instruction/common sense.
What has that got to do with anything? DO they mean cyclist race track? Do they mean lorry racing?
From the story the lorry simply turned left and crushed a cyclist that was in the wrong place despite a million warnings telling cyclists to not place their bicycles there.
I'm very confused by the race track thing.
It's obviously a shame, but speaks volumes that the lorry driver was not arrested.
RacerMDR said:
"Cyclists describe street online as 'race track'"
What has that got to do with anything? DO they mean cyclist race track? Do they mean lorry racing?
From the story the lorry simply turned left and crushed a cyclist that was in the wrong place despite a million warnings telling cyclists to not place their bicycles there.
I'm very confused by the race track thing.
It's obviously a shame, but speaks volumes that the lorry driver was not arrested.
I read it as lorry race track and therefore dangerous for cyclists, but that's got nothing to do with the incident because I imagine it was low speed with the cyclist on the inside of the lorry turning left. They could do with playing that youtube video on billboards where there are about 16 cyclists on the inside of the lorry and the lorry driver can't see any of them in his mirror!What has that got to do with anything? DO they mean cyclist race track? Do they mean lorry racing?
From the story the lorry simply turned left and crushed a cyclist that was in the wrong place despite a million warnings telling cyclists to not place their bicycles there.
I'm very confused by the race track thing.
It's obviously a shame, but speaks volumes that the lorry driver was not arrested.
I know what you mean.
I was on the bus coming in to work today and saw a huge artic turning left into Grays Inn Road from Clerkenwell Road and the amount of cyclists cutting through the ever decreasing gap as he turned left was ridiculous.
The driver had indicated well in advance of his turn and he was obviously very very cautious of cyclists as he was turning slowly but he had to keep jamming on the brakes as the cyclists kept zooming through the gap.
I cycle to work most days from Islington to Soho and there are some terrible cyclists who take unbelievable risks.
I can only think they have no idea of the risks they're taking.
I was on the bus coming in to work today and saw a huge artic turning left into Grays Inn Road from Clerkenwell Road and the amount of cyclists cutting through the ever decreasing gap as he turned left was ridiculous.
The driver had indicated well in advance of his turn and he was obviously very very cautious of cyclists as he was turning slowly but he had to keep jamming on the brakes as the cyclists kept zooming through the gap.
I cycle to work most days from Islington to Soho and there are some terrible cyclists who take unbelievable risks.
I can only think they have no idea of the risks they're taking.
Watched a YouTube clip showing a single speed commuting home, described undertaking/passing on the inside as left hand filtering. I just don't understand why any sane person would put themselves in such a dangerous position and then give it a technical name to justify it. I ride motorbikes, cycle and drive a car, and there is no way I would lefthand filter on the bikes, I'm cautious passing trucks on the inside in my car.
Friend of mine walked past it 2 mins after it happened, before emergency services got there - my friend was very sad and affected by it.
These sad circumstances should always be utilised to publicise the problems I think, rather than aportion blame.
In the case of cyclists; never be to the left of anyone, ever, for any reason. If they over take you and stay on your right, brake.
These sad circumstances should always be utilised to publicise the problems I think, rather than aportion blame.
In the case of cyclists; never be to the left of anyone, ever, for any reason. If they over take you and stay on your right, brake.
bigtomski said:
I know what you mean.
I was on the bus coming in to work today and saw a huge artic turning left into Grays Inn Road from Clerkenwell Road and the amount of cyclists cutting through the ever decreasing gap as he turned left was ridiculous.
The driver had indicated well in advance of his turn and he was obviously very very cautious of cyclists as he was turning slowly but he had to keep jamming on the brakes as the cyclists kept zooming through the gap.
I cycle to work most days from Islington to Soho and there are some terrible cyclists who take unbelievable risks.
I can only think they have no idea of the risks they're taking.
Agree - seen some very silly risk takers. Best to stay behind and well out of the way of big lorries etc. I was on the bus coming in to work today and saw a huge artic turning left into Grays Inn Road from Clerkenwell Road and the amount of cyclists cutting through the ever decreasing gap as he turned left was ridiculous.
The driver had indicated well in advance of his turn and he was obviously very very cautious of cyclists as he was turning slowly but he had to keep jamming on the brakes as the cyclists kept zooming through the gap.
I cycle to work most days from Islington to Soho and there are some terrible cyclists who take unbelievable risks.
I can only think they have no idea of the risks they're taking.
So vulnerable on a bike. Cyclist or Motorbike.
I think if was waiting to turn left, and a lorry came down on my right hand side, I'd go forward through the red so he sees me, or i'd get off and onto the pavement.
One thing for sure is, I wouldn't let someone else decide whether I lived or died.
I think if was waiting to turn left, and a lorry came down on my right hand side, I'd go forward through the red so he sees me, or i'd get off and onto the pavement.
One thing for sure is, I wouldn't let someone else decide whether I lived or died.
RacerMDR said:
So vulnerable on a bike. Cyclist or Motorbike.
I think if was waiting to turn left, and a lorry came down on my right hand side, I'd go forward through the red so he sees me, or i'd get off and onto the pavement.
One thing for sure is, I wouldn't let someone else decide whether I lived or died.
It's why the sensible position is towards the middle of the lane when you're at the front at lights. It prevents people sitting on your right and then turning left.I think if was waiting to turn left, and a lorry came down on my right hand side, I'd go forward through the red so he sees me, or i'd get off and onto the pavement.
One thing for sure is, I wouldn't let someone else decide whether I lived or died.
ewenm said:
RacerMDR said:
So vulnerable on a bike. Cyclist or Motorbike.
I think if was waiting to turn left, and a lorry came down on my right hand side, I'd go forward through the red so he sees me, or i'd get off and onto the pavement.
One thing for sure is, I wouldn't let someone else decide whether I lived or died.
It's why the sensible position is towards the middle of the lane when you're at the front at lights. It prevents people sitting on your right and then turning left.I think if was waiting to turn left, and a lorry came down on my right hand side, I'd go forward through the red so he sees me, or i'd get off and onto the pavement.
One thing for sure is, I wouldn't let someone else decide whether I lived or died.
When I'm on my cycle (in towns), I ride in the same way as on the motorbike.......within reason.
It's also why they have those pushbike sections at the lights, I guess they didn't have one in this case.
Again, more evidence for more training and licencing for anything that is on the road mixing with traffic.
TonyHetherington said:
In the case of cyclists; never be to the left of anyone, ever, for any reason. If they over take you and stay on your right, brake.
It's great advice in theory, in practice cycle lanes are on the left.I'd rather pass on the left (in "normal" traffic, not at junctions) and bail onto the pavement if needs be, than pass on the right (into oncoming traffic) and risk being turned accross and flung onto the oposing carriageway (I've had near misses of both types).
This is a very sad case, as they always are - there is a question as to whether a vehicle that is so badly designed so as to be able to have 16 cyclists around it, but invisible to the driver, is really suitable for city centre roads.
will_ said:
This is a very sad case, as they always are - there is a question as to whether a vehicle that is so badly designed so as to be able to have 16 cyclists around it, but invisible to the driver, is really suitable for city centre roads.
The vehicle design is not the problem. Would the introduction of a "skirt" have helped, I doubt it. The education of the cyclist is the problem:- At the lights first - middle-left of the lane (enough so something can't sit next to you and turn left);
- Filtering down the left of stopped traffic to the front - stop next to the bonnet of car 2 (car 1 can turn left, car 2 can see you pulling away);
- Lorry/bus at the front, stay behind them and go as far as the bonnet of the closest car to the front as per above.
Unfortunately it's all very simple but far too many people don't apply it
When I mentioned 16, that was an artic, no idea what a non-artic is like.
As I say every time this happens, I'm AMAZED this doesn't happen on a daily basis. Riding in London isn't without its issues, but I've done the best part of 15k miles on a bike through London most days and I've not come off yet. Yes there are moments where something can happen, but those moments can be reduced HUGELY by just being aware of what is going on.
will_ said:
It's great advice in theory, in practice cycle lanes are on the left.
I'd rather pass on the left (in "normal" traffic, not at junctions) and bail onto the pavement if needs be, than pass on the right (into oncoming traffic) and risk being turned accross and flung onto the oposing carriageway (I've had near misses of both types).
Ah sorry, I didn't have filtering in my mind as I wrote that, though if cars are stationary then although I guess it should be on the right (understandable why not though), as you do it on the left you can pass stationary cars ok, but the moment they start moving then you move to in between the cars (front/rear) if you see what I mean?I'd rather pass on the left (in "normal" traffic, not at junctions) and bail onto the pavement if needs be, than pass on the right (into oncoming traffic) and risk being turned accross and flung onto the oposing carriageway (I've had near misses of both types).
Maybe "never be on the left of anything moving" would summarise it better.
There isn't really any hard or fast rules, as you can be taken out doing any number of normally safe things. Unless you were to not filter at all then you're always at risk. The issue isn't that people need to remember one particular thing, IMO its that they need to think about the possible outcomes before they do anything on a bike. Filtering, think of what could come out between those stationary cars, etc etc, the situations are endless.
You and would know that, but as a slogan or rule of thumb it won't be quite as catchy 
That cyclists often willingly put themselves in the vulnerable position makes me think that something like that needs to be shared (even though it's not foolproof), just like the Think Bike posters for example.
It's good that the debate is had, just bad that someone has to die to prompt it.
That cyclists often willingly put themselves in the vulnerable position makes me think that something like that needs to be shared (even though it's not foolproof), just like the Think Bike posters for example.
It's good that the debate is had, just bad that someone has to die to prompt it.
AyBee said:
The vehicle design is not the problem. Would the introduction of a "skirt" have helped, I doubt it. The education of the cyclist is the problem:
- At the lights first - middle-left of the lane (enough so something can't sit next to you and turn left);
- Filtering down the left of stopped traffic to the front - stop next to the bonnet of car 2 (car 1 can turn left, car 2 can see you pulling away);
- Lorry/bus at the front, stay behind them and go as far as the bonnet of the closest car to the front as per above.
Unfortunately it's all very simple but far too many people don't apply it
When I mentioned 16, that was an artic, no idea what a non-artic is like.
The vehicle design is most definitely part of the problem. That level of blind spots does not seem sensible in a busy city centre with cyclists and pedestrians constantly around. But like any complex problem, it is only one part. Education of cyclists and drivers is another element.- At the lights first - middle-left of the lane (enough so something can't sit next to you and turn left);
- Filtering down the left of stopped traffic to the front - stop next to the bonnet of car 2 (car 1 can turn left, car 2 can see you pulling away);
- Lorry/bus at the front, stay behind them and go as far as the bonnet of the closest car to the front as per above.
Unfortunately it's all very simple but far too many people don't apply it
When I mentioned 16, that was an artic, no idea what a non-artic is like.
It is "very simple" when you've done it for years. When you are a new cyclist it's not as obvious as you think, particularly if the cycle lane draws you down the left-hand side of the traffic, or you find your entry to the bike box blocked by motorbikes.
In any event your examples are too simple for the volume of traffic and complexity of some junctions.
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