Ignoring basic road sense when cycling
Discussion
I've just come back from a drive near Great Dunmow which took in some single track rural roads. I was approaching a 90 degree blind left-hand bend when two mature cyclists swept round the corner at about 20 to 25mph on (what to me) is the nearside of the road (certainly well over the centre-line of the road, on the offside from their perspective). I was doing about 20mph at that point and came to a complete halt before they reached the front of the car, and they were fortunately able to steer around the car and continue on their way. They were followed by a group of about 40 other cyclists who apparently also don't know that riding on the offside of the offside of what to them is a blind right hand bend is not a good policy. They were riding about three abreast and occupied about 2/3 of the available road width.
So, question to those who ride with clubs or groups of cyclists - is this considered to be acceptable practice? Is it even considered the norm?
So, question to those who ride with clubs or groups of cyclists - is this considered to be acceptable practice? Is it even considered the norm?
Edited by 944Nick on Saturday 30th March 15:24
With the current (probably short term) increase in cyclists. This sort of thing will take a while to sort out.
Yes, you can ride 2 abreast. But too many people don't consider whether they SHOULD. Similarly while back came (stoppit!) across a large group of cyclists. Obviously a club judging from the jersey's (Kingston something or other) in 3-4 groups of 10-12ish. Riding up to 3 abreast. Seems too many people think the time for chatting and pedalling slowly is on the ride.
It's not. The chatting is for the cafe at the half way point. Or at the end. Your meant to be cyclist for god sakes. If you want social. go to a pub!
Yes, you can ride 2 abreast. But too many people don't consider whether they SHOULD. Similarly while back came (stoppit!) across a large group of cyclists. Obviously a club judging from the jersey's (Kingston something or other) in 3-4 groups of 10-12ish. Riding up to 3 abreast. Seems too many people think the time for chatting and pedalling slowly is on the ride.
It's not. The chatting is for the cafe at the half way point. Or at the end. Your meant to be cyclist for god sakes. If you want social. go to a pub!
944Nick said:
It rather depends on the radius, doesn't it? I could certainly negotiate it at 20+ in a car. Unfortunately, at that kind of speed I wouldn't necessarily be able to stop in the distance I can see to be clear.
Yet you said "I was doing about 20mph at that point and came to a complete halt", so presumably you were able to stop in the distance you can see? Don't see the problem here - both you and the cyclists safely managed to negotiate each other and the bend without any undue worries so what's the problem? Presumably if it were a car coming the other way at the same speed as the cyclists you'd still have had to stop before one of you made way for the other?From my assessment of the situation there were several problems:
i) I'm not actually at all certain that the cyclists could have come to a controlled stop if they'd needed to (if I'd been totally blocking the road, for example).
ii) Because of i), they are relying on any oncoming vehicle to come to a halt so that they can negotiate the bend and the oncoming vehicle. I drive bends with the thought that I might have to come to a complete halt at any point, and so progress at a speed where I can stop in the distance I can see to be clear and can reasonably expect to remain clear - lots of people don't however. If they meet one of the latter group the outcome could be quite different.
iii) Their road positioning shows no regard for what might be around a blind corner. If there had been another obstacle apart from me on their nearside (let's say a decent-sized pothole) then their situation would have got very complicated very quickly. It also shows that they are happy to cause inconvenience and potential risk to other road users when there's no need to - they could have been much closer to the nearside (while being safely away from the road's edge) in single or double file, and there would have been plenty of room for everyone to proceed without any braking necessary on anyone's part.
iv) The distance between bikes in the longitudinal direction wouldn't (in my estimation) have allowed the cyclists at the rear to stop if the folks at the front had had to brake very sharply.
v) If you drive/cycle in such a way as to make other road users who are conducting themselves prudently come to an emergency stop because of the combination of factors above, then I suggest that they they are not cycling carefully enough. If I drove a car in such a way as to make a group of cyclists come to an emergency stop, how do you think they would regard it?
(Edited to add): If it had been a car coming round the corner with the same lateral positioning as the cyclists, I would have been in the same position - that's why the choice of lateral position was so poor. The road is wide enough to allow two cars to pass with care at moderate speed, so there's no need to be offside and carrying a fairly high speed for the circumstances if you're on a vehicle that's less than two feet wide.
Additionally, my limited experience of bicycles leads me to believe that they are less stable when braking in bends than cars and can stop less quickly than a car for any given speed and bend radius because of the control issues and (probably) tyre considerations. Is that a reasonable assumption to make?
i) I'm not actually at all certain that the cyclists could have come to a controlled stop if they'd needed to (if I'd been totally blocking the road, for example).
ii) Because of i), they are relying on any oncoming vehicle to come to a halt so that they can negotiate the bend and the oncoming vehicle. I drive bends with the thought that I might have to come to a complete halt at any point, and so progress at a speed where I can stop in the distance I can see to be clear and can reasonably expect to remain clear - lots of people don't however. If they meet one of the latter group the outcome could be quite different.
iii) Their road positioning shows no regard for what might be around a blind corner. If there had been another obstacle apart from me on their nearside (let's say a decent-sized pothole) then their situation would have got very complicated very quickly. It also shows that they are happy to cause inconvenience and potential risk to other road users when there's no need to - they could have been much closer to the nearside (while being safely away from the road's edge) in single or double file, and there would have been plenty of room for everyone to proceed without any braking necessary on anyone's part.
iv) The distance between bikes in the longitudinal direction wouldn't (in my estimation) have allowed the cyclists at the rear to stop if the folks at the front had had to brake very sharply.
v) If you drive/cycle in such a way as to make other road users who are conducting themselves prudently come to an emergency stop because of the combination of factors above, then I suggest that they they are not cycling carefully enough. If I drove a car in such a way as to make a group of cyclists come to an emergency stop, how do you think they would regard it?
(Edited to add): If it had been a car coming round the corner with the same lateral positioning as the cyclists, I would have been in the same position - that's why the choice of lateral position was so poor. The road is wide enough to allow two cars to pass with care at moderate speed, so there's no need to be offside and carrying a fairly high speed for the circumstances if you're on a vehicle that's less than two feet wide.
Additionally, my limited experience of bicycles leads me to believe that they are less stable when braking in bends than cars and can stop less quickly than a car for any given speed and bend radius because of the control issues and (probably) tyre considerations. Is that a reasonable assumption to make?
Edited by 944Nick on Saturday 30th March 18:59
Edited by 944Nick on Saturday 30th March 19:01
Bacon Is Proof said:
I love the way posters will totally disregard the OP's opinion that the cyclists may have been riding a bit s
t,
Indeed.t,Lots of cyclists ride s
t and then grumble when they come a cropperJust like lots of Drivers drive s
t and then grumble when they come a cropper.Try and avoid getting into a situation where you'll come to harm seems prudent. Regardless of whether it's the legal, correct, right thing to do.
It's not quite single track (see earlier post) but whether or not it is, do you think it's wise to adopt an offside position with speed?
Ultimately, in a collision between a cyclist and a car or other vehicle, it's fairly likely that the cyclist will come off worst. Whether or not anyone thinks I'm in the right or not, I posted the original comment in the hope that a mode of behaviour which seemed to be perfectly acceptable to the cycling group might be re-examined in the light of the potential it has for serious injury, pain and a life-changing outcome.
Ultimately, in a collision between a cyclist and a car or other vehicle, it's fairly likely that the cyclist will come off worst. Whether or not anyone thinks I'm in the right or not, I posted the original comment in the hope that a mode of behaviour which seemed to be perfectly acceptable to the cycling group might be re-examined in the light of the potential it has for serious injury, pain and a life-changing outcome.
944Nick, it seems you are on a hiding to nothing here, but I, for one, agree with your assessment of the situation.
I have ridden and driven extensively in the Great Dunmow area, having seen out the last 7 years of my military service at Wimbish. Flitch Bikes was my LBS, and where I bought my road bike. The riding round that way can be utterly brilliant, a complete joy, or it can be insufferably shyte. The biggest determining factor in this is almost always the standard of driving. You seem to have a decent attitude to making progress on these roads...
} their luck and depending on a drivers ability to stop when they CUT A BLIND RIGHT HANDER in order to maintain their speed.
There are many problems, potential, real, or indeed imagined, with this kind of riding.
EVERYONE should be driving and riding in a manner which takes consideration for their own safety and the safety of all other road users seriously. This appears NOT to be the case in the situation described by 944Nick. The way I read his description was that the cyclists were cutting the corner on the 'wrong' side of the road because they would have struggled to negotiate the bend at their chosen speed if they were positioned more to the nearside. A good rider/driver should be choosing their speed of approach based on their required road position for a given bend. These riders seem to be choosing their road position based on the speed of their approach, and demonstrate a failure to properly plan for the corner before they committed to it.
I've just got back from a weekend in Devon, where there are plenty of 'minor' roads on which there are opportunities to 'cut' corners, and even to approach bends on the (wrong) offside of the road, both to maintain speed and to allow for a better look into the bend, but there are also plenty of situations where that behaviour would be completely inappropriate. I sometimes feel that people riding in large groups think it affords them the protection of some 'cloak of invincibility', or maybe they are too busy playing out their TdF fantasies to apply basic road sense to their riding. Either way, collisions between motorised vehicles and bicycles are not always the fault of the driver. Shocking for some, but true.
Ride safe, all
I have ridden and driven extensively in the Great Dunmow area, having seen out the last 7 years of my military service at Wimbish. Flitch Bikes was my LBS, and where I bought my road bike. The riding round that way can be utterly brilliant, a complete joy, or it can be insufferably shyte. The biggest determining factor in this is almost always the standard of driving. You seem to have a decent attitude to making progress on these roads...
944Nick said:
...(I) progress at a speed where I can stop in the distance I can see to be clear and can reasonably expect to remain clear - lots of people don't however...
... but cyclists, either singularly or in groups, should not be riding {sorry } their luck and depending on a drivers ability to stop when they CUT A BLIND RIGHT HANDER in order to maintain their speed.There are many problems, potential, real, or indeed imagined, with this kind of riding.
- Many people cycle theses quiet roads. Bikes are generally silent, or at the very least, quieter than the noise of the wind in your ears at, say, 20mph. Head-on collisions between cyclists at speed are not going to end well.
- Many young drivers, some barely legal, one or two possibly illegal, take to the narrow roads, egged-on by their mates to demonstrate their driving prowess (or lack thereof). Some of these oiks will deliberately engineer conflict with more vulnerable road users, presumably because they find it funny. They exploit the protection afforded to them by their steel safety cage, to verbally abuse, throw objects at, and 'near miss' their victims, while pushing their badly modded and poorly maintained stboxes "to the max".
- Horses are often ridden on these roads, and can be spooked by cyclists passing quickly. For horse riders, a cyclist or cyclists can be a more difficult situation to manage than a car or cars. Imagine the carnage a galloping horse could wreak upon the following group if it were to be spooked by those first two riders.
- A lot of people who consider themselves to be skilled and considerate drivers are, in truth, a lot less skilled and considerate than they like to believe. This includes behaviour such as taking corners as quickly as the limit of available grip will allow, rather than negotiating bends with any consideration as to what they might meet on the other side. I know this to be true, having been a passenger on terror rides in vehicles driven by alleged professional drivers. When driving duties have been left to me, I have been accused of "Driving Miss Daisy" but that's another story.
EVERYONE should be driving and riding in a manner which takes consideration for their own safety and the safety of all other road users seriously. This appears NOT to be the case in the situation described by 944Nick. The way I read his description was that the cyclists were cutting the corner on the 'wrong' side of the road because they would have struggled to negotiate the bend at their chosen speed if they were positioned more to the nearside. A good rider/driver should be choosing their speed of approach based on their required road position for a given bend. These riders seem to be choosing their road position based on the speed of their approach, and demonstrate a failure to properly plan for the corner before they committed to it.
I've just got back from a weekend in Devon, where there are plenty of 'minor' roads on which there are opportunities to 'cut' corners, and even to approach bends on the (wrong) offside of the road, both to maintain speed and to allow for a better look into the bend, but there are also plenty of situations where that behaviour would be completely inappropriate. I sometimes feel that people riding in large groups think it affords them the protection of some 'cloak of invincibility', or maybe they are too busy playing out their TdF fantasies to apply basic road sense to their riding. Either way, collisions between motorised vehicles and bicycles are not always the fault of the driver. Shocking for some, but true.
Ride safe, all
I think drivers and cyclists see the road differently. As a cyclist and a motorist this kind of event would have been viewed slightly differently. Mi would have see a group of guys / club ride and thought, "wish I was out there with them". I also expect to have to deal with cyclists on quiet and odd bits of road.
They have probably ridden that bend hundreds of times with no car there. It does not excuse poor road position, but if one of those cyclists was driving that road their attitude would have been different.
OP- try it! Get on a bike, ride with the club, you may see the road differently and understand why in this forum the cyclist comes first.
They have probably ridden that bend hundreds of times with no car there. It does not excuse poor road position, but if one of those cyclists was driving that road their attitude would have been different.
OP- try it! Get on a bike, ride with the club, you may see the road differently and understand why in this forum the cyclist comes first.
One thing I think we could all agree on is that we've seen some cyclists do some pretty bloody ridiculous things, seemingly unaware of their vulnerability or impact on other users.
Equally some car drivers have too, but in this thread it was a group of cyclists completely forgetting they were on a road and causing the OP to have to stop.
To summarise; I agree, 944Nick, there are some dicks of cyclists around. A shame, because they reflect badly on all of us.
Equally some car drivers have too, but in this thread it was a group of cyclists completely forgetting they were on a road and causing the OP to have to stop.
To summarise; I agree, 944Nick, there are some dicks of cyclists around. A shame, because they reflect badly on all of us.
Gooby said:
Get on a bike, ride with the club, you may see the road differently and understand why in this forum the cyclist comes first.
And it's that attitude that will lead to your downfall.And I say that as a competative cyclist for 20+ years and Car driver (Road n Track) for nearly the same amount.
^ Riding with a club does not change the way you look at things - just becuase a group of people go round a blind bend badly does not change the fact that it is both dangerous and silly. Thankfully, if people did that in the club I ride with, one of the more experienced riders would point out to the people concerned where the risks were and why doing that is a bad idea.
It's far to easy to get "us and them" on both sides of the fence. I strongly disagree that on this forum the cyclist comes first - all road users share the space and have equal rights / responsibilities.
Here, on the Pedal powered bit of PH is the 1 place on the internet I'd expect people to understand that...
It's far to easy to get "us and them" on both sides of the fence. I strongly disagree that on this forum the cyclist comes first - all road users share the space and have equal rights / responsibilities.
Here, on the Pedal powered bit of PH is the 1 place on the internet I'd expect people to understand that...
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