Upgrade my DT Swiss 1.0 etrto wheels
Discussion
usual suspects really, Shimano RS80s, Fulcrum 3s, Campag Zondas or "handbuilts" (ultegra hubs on mavic open pros are a popular choice).
All wheels are "handbuilt" at this sort of price range, purists will claim that if they know the bloke who built them and can visit him, the wheels are somehow better than a bloke in a factory who builds them day in day out but hey ho...
dont discount the planet x 50mm carbon clinchers, they are popular wheels and fairly light for deep clinchers.
All wheels are "handbuilt" at this sort of price range, purists will claim that if they know the bloke who built them and can visit him, the wheels are somehow better than a bloke in a factory who builds them day in day out but hey ho...
dont discount the planet x 50mm carbon clinchers, they are popular wheels and fairly light for deep clinchers.
All wheels are "handbuilt" at this sort of price range, purists will claim that if they know the bloke who built them and can visit him, the wheels are somehow better than a bloke in a factory who builds them day in day out but hey ho...
Not so much that as "suitability" and repairs. You'll be buying a wheel that's a heady mix of compromise and marketing. Compromise in that said wheel has to suit a range of potential conditions and rider weights: this means that you're buying *something* you don't need, yet at the same time buying *something* that isn't as good as what it could be. F' instance, if you're a 55Kg racing snake who'll never venture away from the circuit or silky smooth tarmac, why buy wheels with the heft to suit a 90K rider over rougher roads?
Then there's marketing: SPOKE COUNT SO LOW IT'S IN NEGATIVE FIGURES! RIMS SO DEEP YOU DON'T NEED SPOKES! LIGHTER! STIFFER! BOLD! NEW! GRAPHICS! ...and all that jazz. Make it racey = daft low spoke counts = beefier rim to compensate = more weight right where you don't want it + more problems when a spoke pops.
As for repairs, YOU try getting a spoke for, say, a Fulcrum Racing 1 or Shimano RS80 in August? Even better if you're in the Alps. Hope you've kept your old wheels as a back-up
£300 (or £315, I can;t remember) gets you - and got me (I put my money where my mouth is
) Ultegras on Mavic Open Pros from a Mr. Harry Rowland.
Not so much that as "suitability" and repairs. You'll be buying a wheel that's a heady mix of compromise and marketing. Compromise in that said wheel has to suit a range of potential conditions and rider weights: this means that you're buying *something* you don't need, yet at the same time buying *something* that isn't as good as what it could be. F' instance, if you're a 55Kg racing snake who'll never venture away from the circuit or silky smooth tarmac, why buy wheels with the heft to suit a 90K rider over rougher roads?
Then there's marketing: SPOKE COUNT SO LOW IT'S IN NEGATIVE FIGURES! RIMS SO DEEP YOU DON'T NEED SPOKES! LIGHTER! STIFFER! BOLD! NEW! GRAPHICS! ...and all that jazz. Make it racey = daft low spoke counts = beefier rim to compensate = more weight right where you don't want it + more problems when a spoke pops.
As for repairs, YOU try getting a spoke for, say, a Fulcrum Racing 1 or Shimano RS80 in August? Even better if you're in the Alps. Hope you've kept your old wheels as a back-up
£300 (or £315, I can;t remember) gets you - and got me (I put my money where my mouth is
) Ultegras on Mavic Open Pros from a Mr. Harry Rowland.Jimbo. said:
As for repairs, YOU try getting a spoke for, say, a Fulcrum Racing 1 or Shimano RS80 in August? Even better if you're in the Alps. Hope you've kept your old wheels as a back-up
£300 (or £315, I can;t remember) gets you - and got me (I put my money where my mouth is) Ultegras on Mavic Open Pros from a Mr. Harry Rowland.
Really daft noob question - are you really saying that if you go to a bike shop in the alps, they'll have spare spokes for wheels built by a bloke called Harry - but not a standard Shimano wheel? £300 (or £315, I can;t remember) gets you - and got me (I put my money where my mouth is
) Ultegras on Mavic Open Pros from a Mr. Harry Rowland.Some Gump said:
Really daft noob question - are you really saying that if you go to a bike shop in the alps, they'll have spare spokes for wheels built by a bloke called Harry - but not a standard Shimano wheel?
Yes. "Hanbuilt" or traditional wheels from Harry Rowland, or indeed ANY wheelbuilder, use standard, off-the-shelf parts which are readily available, anywhere. "Factory" wheels from Shimano use unique-to-that-model, unique-to-that-manufacturer parts. The same applies to Mavic, Campagnolo, Fulcrum, Easton etc, etc. Supply of these parts is often limited and nearly always expensive. It's a bit like car tyres: run a normal car with normal tyres, and you can get them anywhere without trying too hard. If however you want tyres for a Veyron or metrics for a Jaguar XJ40, then you're stuffed.Well, I AM suprised by that. I always assumed that e.g choosing one of the most popular wheels (RS80) was pretty much the same as buying a VW - every shop sells em, so parts will be easy to find. I didn't see the big name factory wheels like your tyre analogy - I presumed the "custom to my spec by Harry" would be the equivilent of the 275 65 ZR 15 (basically, rarer than rocking horse s
t!)
t!)Some Gump said:
Well, I AM suprised by that. I always assumed that e.g choosing one of the most popular wheels (RS80) was pretty much the same as buying a VW - every shop sells em, so parts will be easy to find. I didn't see the big name factory wheels like your tyre analogy - I presumed the "custom to my spec by Harry" would be the equivilent of the 275 65 ZR 15 (basically, rarer than rocking horse st!)
Wheels are only an assemblage of parts: hubs, spokes, nipples, rims. Over time and through industry-wide experience, there have emerged a number of standards, some formal, some informal ("the norm"), accepted techniques and materials. Innovation brings new stuff every now and then, some of it being accepted throughout (free hubs, f' instance), some questionable (alloy nipples), some rejected outright. Like anything. Anyway, manufacturers make these parts knowing that people will buy them, with the buyer knowing that if they buy the right parts, they'll all fit together. No different from, say, baking: you buy the ingredients, and it doesn't matter whether you buy Waitrose flour or Adsa yeast, just so long as you buy the ingredients relevant to what you want to make (wholemeal, sourdough etc). You can fit Shimano hubs to Mavic rims (rival competitors): you just have to get the right spoke length (manufacturers make different lengths to cater for different hub sizes, rim depths etc), make sure the number of spoke holes in the hubs matches the number of holes in the rim, and of course making sure you have enough spokes. Much like anything with a human "creative" element, the skill is in how they're out together. But that's another argument.t!)Factory wheels, however, generally disregard those aforementioned norms, standards etc (beyond the absolute essentials such as wheel size and hub width) in favour of what the manufacturer believes is best. If that means an oddball length spoke and a unique spoke/hub and spoke/rim interface, so be it. They'll claim lighter weight, stiffer wheels...and they may be right. However, ONLY that manufacturer makes those parts, and ONLY those manufacturers parts ONLY for the same given wheel will fit together. Suddenly you've not the choice of parts from different manufacturers to do the same job: your Waitrose flour now needs Waitrose yeast and a Waitrose bread tin to work. But only Tescos is open. So you go hungry, or eat flour...both as useless as the other.
Its not quite the disaster area that Jimbo describes, people like shimano have all the technical data available online so you can identify the spoke length for your particular wheel then go out and find the right spoke, it may not be exactly the same but you will for example be able to find a black/silver double butted/aero spoke the right length easily enough and places do stock spokes for other wheels like Campagnolo albeit as kits not singular, yes they are stupidly expensive for what they are and you do need to take that into account when you buy the wheels.
I mihgt buy a set so I know that if a spoke goes, I take the spare and the wheel to the shop and they fix it, crisis over...
That said, even spokes like Sapim CX Rays still the wheelbuilders spoke of choice, are just £2 each so Jimbos comments make a lot of sense, if you find yourself frequently breaking spokes...I'm 99% sure I could find a cx ray the right length to fit the Zondas too.... which may or may not be hte exsact spoke used in the Zondas!...
After all, all this development of road wheel technology isnt being done by the Harry Rowland's of this world, thats why they just build things that other people produce. They build good wheels because they do it every day for thirty odd years but they didnt actually sit there and work out the hub flange height, hte required spoke length, the forces going through each spoke, the rim depth, the rim thickness, the optimum number of spokes... In that sense, Harry et al are no different to the chaps sat at the Shimano factory in Taiwan building their wheels every day? "Factory" just means loads of people building wheels all day and knowing the obsession with quality control over there, I have no concerns with buying facotry wheelsets...
Sure it works, its tried and tested stuff but they dont go out there and design rims and hubs themselves, they might have a good grasp of what will/will not work but they still have to wait till the Zipp, HED and Reynolds of this world have spent thousands developing new things, tested and developed them and brought them to market whist Harry et al are still building shimano hubs on open pros...
I mihgt buy a set so I know that if a spoke goes, I take the spare and the wheel to the shop and they fix it, crisis over...
That said, even spokes like Sapim CX Rays still the wheelbuilders spoke of choice, are just £2 each so Jimbos comments make a lot of sense, if you find yourself frequently breaking spokes...I'm 99% sure I could find a cx ray the right length to fit the Zondas too.... which may or may not be hte exsact spoke used in the Zondas!...
Jimbo said:
Factory wheels, however, generally disregard those aforementioned norms, standards etc (beyond the absolute essentials such as wheel size and hub width) in favour of what the manufacturer believes is best.
I'm slightly stumped as to how the collective knowledge of Campag/Shmiano/Mavic is somehow less than one man however...They hardly build wheels on a hunch using a fag packet and a spirograph, I'd assume the R&D departments at each of the above are fairly busy places... Adherence to standards stifle innovation, I have enough arguments about this at work!... "we do it this way beacuase thats the way its always been done", could be applied to anything but fits wheel building pretty well!! After all, all this development of road wheel technology isnt being done by the Harry Rowland's of this world, thats why they just build things that other people produce. They build good wheels because they do it every day for thirty odd years but they didnt actually sit there and work out the hub flange height, hte required spoke length, the forces going through each spoke, the rim depth, the rim thickness, the optimum number of spokes... In that sense, Harry et al are no different to the chaps sat at the Shimano factory in Taiwan building their wheels every day? "Factory" just means loads of people building wheels all day and knowing the obsession with quality control over there, I have no concerns with buying facotry wheelsets...
Sure it works, its tried and tested stuff but they dont go out there and design rims and hubs themselves, they might have a good grasp of what will/will not work but they still have to wait till the Zipp, HED and Reynolds of this world have spent thousands developing new things, tested and developed them and brought them to market whist Harry et al are still building shimano hubs on open pros...
Edited by anonymous-user on Wednesday 20th March 08:35
Edited by anonymous-user on Wednesday 20th March 08:39
If you are worried that your low spoke count means if one snaps, you won't get home, carry one of these.
http://www.fiberfixspoke.com/
I've just gone from handbuilt 36/36 to factory 18/24 for audax. We'll see if I come to regret it.
http://www.fiberfixspoke.com/
I've just gone from handbuilt 36/36 to factory 18/24 for audax. We'll see if I come to regret it.
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