Upgrading a XC bike to an All Mountain
Discussion
After a very long break (17 years) from any sort of cycling I got back into Mountain biking last year and bought myself a 2012 Giant Trance X4 mainly because all of the reviews gave it 10/10 - everyone seemed to rave about it saying it was as good as bikes at 2/3 times the price and the frame set was exactly the same as the much higher priced models.
I love the bike - but find that I'm doing more and more challenging trail centre and more downhill oriented stuff - so I want to try and modify the bike to make it more of a 'do it all' all-mountain/ enduro type of machine. One which can handle the tougher trails, jumps and downhills - but still pedal back up to the top.
My intention is to first of all fit wider bars to and fit a much shorter stem - the current one is I think 110mm - so I will fit a much shorter one to bring more of my weight and COG inboard.
Dropper post seems to be a very sensible addition so I can move between climbing, flat pedalling and descending/jumping quickly.
A bigger fork will follow - probably 150-160mm (current is 120) but that's a major outlay so it can wait and I will need to understand what that would mean in terms of compromising the bottom bracket height - and even what I can actually fit to the bike.
The other option I want to look at is slackening the geometry - the head angle is pretty steep and whilst good for going uphill it makes the bike quite snatchy - especially when tackling jumps.
I figured that I would just have to live with the head angle - but I understand that Cane Creek do an Angleset headset which allows you to slacken or steepen the head angle by up to 1.5 degrees - which sounds great, although at 200 quid its a bit steep - anyone got any experience of these or proffer alternative suggestions?
Anyway that's my plan/thoughts - but as I'm a little out of touch these days and things have moved on so much during my absence I thought I check with you guys.
Advise me!
I love the bike - but find that I'm doing more and more challenging trail centre and more downhill oriented stuff - so I want to try and modify the bike to make it more of a 'do it all' all-mountain/ enduro type of machine. One which can handle the tougher trails, jumps and downhills - but still pedal back up to the top.
My intention is to first of all fit wider bars to and fit a much shorter stem - the current one is I think 110mm - so I will fit a much shorter one to bring more of my weight and COG inboard.
Dropper post seems to be a very sensible addition so I can move between climbing, flat pedalling and descending/jumping quickly.
A bigger fork will follow - probably 150-160mm (current is 120) but that's a major outlay so it can wait and I will need to understand what that would mean in terms of compromising the bottom bracket height - and even what I can actually fit to the bike.
The other option I want to look at is slackening the geometry - the head angle is pretty steep and whilst good for going uphill it makes the bike quite snatchy - especially when tackling jumps.
I figured that I would just have to live with the head angle - but I understand that Cane Creek do an Angleset headset which allows you to slacken or steepen the head angle by up to 1.5 degrees - which sounds great, although at 200 quid its a bit steep - anyone got any experience of these or proffer alternative suggestions?
Anyway that's my plan/thoughts - but as I'm a little out of touch these days and things have moved on so much during my absence I thought I check with you guys.
Advise me!
My recommendation is to not bugger up the X4!
Keep the X4 for XC stuff and buy a new or s/h AM rig. For starters the money you'd spend to make the X4 into a good AM bike will be enough to practically buy you a 140/150mm bike. Also, a 150mm fork on the X4 will a) invalidate the frame warranty (too long) and b) competely mess up the geometery, not to mention that with "long" forks you need good damping which means buying an expensive fork (>500!). Then you need a decent AM wheelset to avoid smashing a more XC wheelset up (there goes another 500) add in a dropper post (200), and numerous sundries and you may as well just buy a new 1500 AM bike tbh.
A different question is do you really need a more capable bike? Be honest? As a start perhaps just a set of flat pedals (if your using SPD's) and a dropper post should open up the full capability of the X4 (and maybe a some skills training to best use the performance availible)
Keep the X4 for XC stuff and buy a new or s/h AM rig. For starters the money you'd spend to make the X4 into a good AM bike will be enough to practically buy you a 140/150mm bike. Also, a 150mm fork on the X4 will a) invalidate the frame warranty (too long) and b) competely mess up the geometery, not to mention that with "long" forks you need good damping which means buying an expensive fork (>500!). Then you need a decent AM wheelset to avoid smashing a more XC wheelset up (there goes another 500) add in a dropper post (200), and numerous sundries and you may as well just buy a new 1500 AM bike tbh.
A different question is do you really need a more capable bike? Be honest? As a start perhaps just a set of flat pedals (if your using SPD's) and a dropper post should open up the full capability of the X4 (and maybe a some skills training to best use the performance availible)
To be honest,after all that you will have spent loads and end up with a beefy XC bike.... in simple terms its just not a suitable base to start from.
IMHO, "all mountain" is just a marketing term meaning beefy xc bike but enduro is a race series. you get timed on the downhill parts of the course and then have a time limit by which to reach the next section, that limit isnt hard to make though so most people go for a big bike to descend fast on and struggle/push up the climbs..... the downhill sections are steep, fast and technical. This video gives you a flavour of some of the more popular bikes and the set up, lots of coil springs at the back and single pivot designs.
That all said, I rode my Super 4 all over the place and really never found myself wanting a "bigger" bike, it was fast as hell but could descend pretty well too. A lot of it is about how far you are pushing, your skills and how fast you really want to go. Remember most enduro riders will have body armour and a fair few ride with full face lids now too.... as i said the emphasis is very much on going downhill quickly...
The Trance is a great bike but its never going to be an all mountain/enduro bike. The limiting factors are the geometry which probably doesnt have slack enough angles and also has a really low bb, and the rear shock. I appreciate the adjustable stem will help but its a sticking plaster on an axe wound, metaphorically.... Fitting 150mm forks will ruin the handling too. Thats going to raise the front end and bring everything close, reducing the cockpit area massively, a shorter stem wont make much difference and you will feel very cramped. Over the really rough stuff, you will find your body creeping further forwards than you are comfortable with. 150mm at the front and 120mm at the back will be horrendous too. The rear ofthe trance just isnt designed to cope with just wont be able to cope and will flex horribly, especially given the fork will most likely have a bolt thru axle.
However, if on reflection, all mountain and enduro terminology aside, you just want a beefier xc bike, the trance is a great bike and a shorter stem and wider bars are a good way to go. I dont think 200 on a dropper post or bigger forks are worthwhile investments though.
If you are really keen though, take the hit, sell the Trance and buy something fit for purpose, I'd go hunting for 2nd hand Orange five (loads around), a Giant Reign a Lapierre Zesty or even a Spicy personally. If you really want to go nuts, have a look at the Nukeproof Mega.... or a Cotic Rocket!...
But fundamentally, no amount of money will make this
into this
I de XC'd mine recently; it was fast but a major handful on techy stuff. New frame (Stumpy HT to Cotic Soul), wider tyres, a shorter stem and flat to risers really worked a treat. Tiny bit heavier but do much more fun!
I do think the frame is the key thing though; I bought the others bits first and the difference was small.
I do think the frame is the key thing though; I bought the others bits first and the difference was small.
Thanks.
I fully accept that I can't take a XC bike and turn it into something fit for a world cup course or Enduro racing in the same way that I can't take a cardigan and turn it into a wetsuit.
I don't want to sell the bike as it seems like a sure fire way to lose a load of money - I just wanted to make a few tweaks to make it a little more all purpose and forgiving over the steeper/rougher stuff.
Point taken on the fork though - although it does seem a weakness of the bike overall - perhaps I should just upgrade on a like for like basis travel-wise.
Bars and stem change seem like a no brainer - is the angleset not worth the bother - the reviews I read of it seemed to be very positive in changing the feel of the bike for the better when moving to a slacker head angle. Bearing in mind we are only talking about moving down to 68 degrees from 69.5
I fully accept that I can't take a XC bike and turn it into something fit for a world cup course or Enduro racing in the same way that I can't take a cardigan and turn it into a wetsuit.
I don't want to sell the bike as it seems like a sure fire way to lose a load of money - I just wanted to make a few tweaks to make it a little more all purpose and forgiving over the steeper/rougher stuff.
Point taken on the fork though - although it does seem a weakness of the bike overall - perhaps I should just upgrade on a like for like basis travel-wise.
Bars and stem change seem like a no brainer - is the angleset not worth the bother - the reviews I read of it seemed to be very positive in changing the feel of the bike for the better when moving to a slacker head angle. Bearing in mind we are only talking about moving down to 68 degrees from 69.5
What is your budget for upgrades?
If you're talking 100 for bars and stem then go for it, they will make a bit of difference.
But if you're on about 7-800 for the above, plus dropper post and fork, then sell the Trance and use your budget to buy the bike you actually want. 2nd hand Nukeproof Megas are available for about 1500.
If you're talking 100 for bars and stem then go for it, they will make a bit of difference.
But if you're on about 7-800 for the above, plus dropper post and fork, then sell the Trance and use your budget to buy the bike you actually want. 2nd hand Nukeproof Megas are available for about 1500.
Pablo is bang on the money.
Also agree that wider riser bars, shorter stem and heavier duty tyres (something like Maxxis High Roller Single ply) will transform your current steed and inspire more confidence on the downs and the jumps. I'd stick on a good set of flats too for added 'bail-ability'
I was in similar boat in that i wanted something better for the local BMX track and thought about 'converting' my hardtail Orange P7 Pro for the job (it's a 17' so plenty chuckable) by shortening stem, replacing triple ring for a chain device, bigger wheels etc etc. but the sum price of upgrading was more than a good jump bike and I would've ruined the P7 for what it does very well which is hacking about the woods and getting me too and from work.
N+1 will always make sense in the end
Also agree that wider riser bars, shorter stem and heavier duty tyres (something like Maxxis High Roller Single ply) will transform your current steed and inspire more confidence on the downs and the jumps. I'd stick on a good set of flats too for added 'bail-ability'
I was in similar boat in that i wanted something better for the local BMX track and thought about 'converting' my hardtail Orange P7 Pro for the job (it's a 17' so plenty chuckable) by shortening stem, replacing triple ring for a chain device, bigger wheels etc etc. but the sum price of upgrading was more than a good jump bike and I would've ruined the P7 for what it does very well which is hacking about the woods and getting me too and from work.
N+1 will always make sense in the end
I agree with wider bars and shorter stem. Then tires will make the biggest difference, agree with the Maxxis High Roller single ply.
If you want to slacken your head angle dont bother wasting 200 on a new headset.
Try 20 for some new off set shock bushings!
I race Downhill and a lots of us uses these to get a slacker bike
http://www.offsetbushings.com/
If you want to slacken your head angle dont bother wasting 200 on a new headset.
Try 20 for some new off set shock bushings!
I race Downhill and a lots of us uses these to get a slacker bike
http://www.offsetbushings.com/
I've got a Giant Anthem X, now that is an XC bike!
I wanted to buy a Trance to expand the range of trails I could enjoy so I rented an X4 and was very disapointed with the front fork. Its a Rock Shox Tora or XC32 Coil isn't it? I couldn't get on with it at all. I intended to go back and try the X2 instead but I had to get home. Then, in the middle of a trip to Glentress a few weeks later the frame on my Anthem snapped (great warranty though - ref Mr Torques post!) so I bought a Trek Fuel EX7 instead as it was available in the local shop and fitted the bill. I tried their EX8 demo first though and I've been much happier on it for the more adventurouss stuff. I think I would look at chopping the X4 in either for an X3or2 or switch to a Trek Fuel Ex. There all highly regarded, readily available trail bikes which will give you a good suspension upgrade. I dont think you need the slacker geo AM bike though.
I wanted to buy a Trance to expand the range of trails I could enjoy so I rented an X4 and was very disapointed with the front fork. Its a Rock Shox Tora or XC32 Coil isn't it? I couldn't get on with it at all. I intended to go back and try the X2 instead but I had to get home. Then, in the middle of a trip to Glentress a few weeks later the frame on my Anthem snapped (great warranty though - ref Mr Torques post!) so I bought a Trek Fuel EX7 instead as it was available in the local shop and fitted the bill. I tried their EX8 demo first though and I've been much happier on it for the more adventurouss stuff. I think I would look at chopping the X4 in either for an X3or2 or switch to a Trek Fuel Ex. There all highly regarded, readily available trail bikes which will give you a good suspension upgrade. I dont think you need the slacker geo AM bike though.
Mr Gearchange said:
After a very long break (17 years) from any sort of cycling I got back into Mountain biking last year and bought myself a 2012 Giant Trance X4 mainly because all of the reviews gave it 10/10 - everyone seemed to rave about it saying it was as good as bikes at 2/3 times the price and the frame set was exactly the same as the much higher priced models.
I love the bike - but find that I'm doing more and more challenging trail centre and more downhill oriented stuff - so I want to try and modify the bike to make it more of a 'do it all' all-mountain/ enduro type of machine. One which can handle the tougher trails, jumps and downhills - but still pedal back up to the top.
My intention is to first of all fit wider bars to and fit a much shorter stem - the current one is I think 110mm - so I will fit a much shorter one to bring more of my weight and COG inboard.
Dropper post seems to be a very sensible addition so I can move between climbing, flat pedalling and descending/jumping quickly.
A bigger fork will follow - probably 150-160mm (current is 120) but that's a major outlay so it can wait and I will need to understand what that would mean in terms of compromising the bottom bracket height - and even what I can actually fit to the bike.
The other option I want to look at is slackening the geometry - the head angle is pretty steep and whilst good for going uphill it makes the bike quite snatchy - especially when tackling jumps.
I figured that I would just have to live with the head angle - but I understand that Cane Creek do an Angleset headset which allows you to slacken or steepen the head angle by up to 1.5 degrees - which sounds great, although at 200 quid its a bit steep - anyone got any experience of these or proffer alternative suggestions?
Anyway that's my plan/thoughts - but as I'm a little out of touch these days and things have moved on so much during my absence I thought I check with you guys.
Advise me!
Everyone else has said don't do it, but I've just done it!I love the bike - but find that I'm doing more and more challenging trail centre and more downhill oriented stuff - so I want to try and modify the bike to make it more of a 'do it all' all-mountain/ enduro type of machine. One which can handle the tougher trails, jumps and downhills - but still pedal back up to the top.
My intention is to first of all fit wider bars to and fit a much shorter stem - the current one is I think 110mm - so I will fit a much shorter one to bring more of my weight and COG inboard.
Dropper post seems to be a very sensible addition so I can move between climbing, flat pedalling and descending/jumping quickly.
A bigger fork will follow - probably 150-160mm (current is 120) but that's a major outlay so it can wait and I will need to understand what that would mean in terms of compromising the bottom bracket height - and even what I can actually fit to the bike.
The other option I want to look at is slackening the geometry - the head angle is pretty steep and whilst good for going uphill it makes the bike quite snatchy - especially when tackling jumps.
I figured that I would just have to live with the head angle - but I understand that Cane Creek do an Angleset headset which allows you to slacken or steepen the head angle by up to 1.5 degrees - which sounds great, although at 200 quid its a bit steep - anyone got any experience of these or proffer alternative suggestions?
Anyway that's my plan/thoughts - but as I'm a little out of touch these days and things have moved on so much during my absence I thought I check with you guys.
Advise me!
I was looking at the Giant website as I was planning an 'AM' bike. I love the Trance so was looking at using a Reign frame as a base until I saw that the Trance X is a more robust frame from a loading point of view...surprising, but there it is. So, with the Trance X having 5" rear travel, I bought a 2011 Trance X frame off ebay, still in it's original packing crate complete with RP23.
So, on to Chain Reaction Cycles for components... I watch the way CRC components come down in price and their frequent sales. 1st purchase was a set of Fox TALAS 36, with adjustable travel between 120 and 160mm, all for about £450. I'm very heavy and extremely heavy on the front end downhill. The Trance X frame is very, very beefy up front. Next was a 2011 front Mavic Crossmax wheel with a 20mm through axle to suit the 36's, followed by a 2012 rear wheel crossmax to match - both for about £300 all in. A spacer for my existing front caliper and an 8" disc so that I don't burst my wrist on downhills... The rear is still 6", but I'll increase that to 7" later. Shortened Race Face stem, original RF bars from my old 2006 Trance 1 and the CF seat-post from the 2006 trance. Drive train for the moment is the XTR set from the old Trance too...
Handling so far: Well the front runs at 120mm for XC and then for general buggering about and downhill the extension to 160 lifts the bars nicely - something I had always meant to do to match saddle height with bar height due to being very tall. It#s a nice ride!
Just do what suits you and trying something different is a lot of fun.
I'll post a pic ot 2 of my new bike later on.
Just as I was about to start looking for another bike too...
That's very interesting - bars and stem are pretty much a given but I'm very interested to see pics and understand what it's like to ride on a much longer fork - do you have issues with the BB height? Does it still ride ok uphill or is it very compromised on a bigger for (I appreciate that you can change it back to 120mm as the need arises)
I certainly don't want I bugger the bike up - just make it a bit more all purpose.
I will eventually get around to buying a full on DH rig - but any changes that improve the bikes all round capability I'm keen to hear
That's very interesting - bars and stem are pretty much a given but I'm very interested to see pics and understand what it's like to ride on a much longer fork - do you have issues with the BB height? Does it still ride ok uphill or is it very compromised on a bigger for (I appreciate that you can change it back to 120mm as the need arises)
I certainly don't want I bugger the bike up - just make it a bit more all purpose.
I will eventually get around to buying a full on DH rig - but any changes that improve the bikes all round capability I'm keen to hear
JayHeal said:
I agree with wider bars and shorter stem. Then tires will make the biggest difference, agree with the Maxxis High Roller single ply.
If you want to slacken your head angle dont bother wasting 200 on a new headset.
Try 20 for some new off set shock bushings!
I race Downhill and a lots of us uses these to get a slacker bike
http://www.offsetbushings.com/
That's interesting and at 20 quid hardly a risky investment.If you want to slacken your head angle dont bother wasting 200 on a new headset.
Try 20 for some new off set shock bushings!
I race Downhill and a lots of us uses these to get a slacker bike
http://www.offsetbushings.com/
I'm struggling to visualise what the effect would be on a bike where the rear shock sits vertically rather than along a more horizontal plane.
But again - it's only 20 quid..
Mr Gearchange said:
JayHeal said:
I agree with wider bars and shorter stem. Then tires will make the biggest difference, agree with the Maxxis High Roller single ply.
If you want to slacken your head angle dont bother wasting 200 on a new headset.
Try 20 for some new off set shock bushings!
I race Downhill and a lots of us uses these to get a slacker bike
http://www.offsetbushings.com/
That's interesting and at 20 quid hardly a risky investment.If you want to slacken your head angle dont bother wasting 200 on a new headset.
Try 20 for some new off set shock bushings!
I race Downhill and a lots of us uses these to get a slacker bike
http://www.offsetbushings.com/
I'm struggling to visualise what the effect would be on a bike where the rear shock sits vertically rather than along a more horizontal plane.
But again - it's only 20 quid..
So, if your bike has say a 200mm long 57mm travel shock, offset bushings that make it into say a 195mm by 57mm shock does't change the total travel, but the bike will sit 12.5mm lower at the back (for a mean 2.5:1 ratio system) Of course, you do need to make sure that nothing clashes at full bump, because effectively the rear suspension and all the linkages will move further towards the main triangle than without the offset bushes.
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