PDK and driving (on track and elsewhere)
Discussion
with the GT3 PDK news now official i wanted to share some thoughts, hopefully some of you find the points raised of interest and are able to get beyond an initial kneejerk reaction
ive always found the comments surrounding PDK of interest however of particular note are the ones regarding paddle shifts being only for race cars. for some this is a good thing, for others its the death of driving involvement. i have no horse in that race but i do have some data that might make for a better discussion.
there are PDK boxes being raced competitively and have been for some time. with cooling mods they have so far proved successful too and given the clear advantages in terms of lap time and driver fatigue the numbers will be clearly on the rise. none of this is especially interesting so far BUT, heres where it gets so.
all of the data on the boxes in racing use show clearly that for maximum performance then auto mode is the one you want. any manual interaction messes things up in a big way. the short is that there are so many sensors feeding the pdk that when left alone it knows exactly what is going on at all times and is always in the right gear (and what and when that gear is can be eye opening).
start faffing about with the paddles and the transmission is now left waiting for you, and no matter how good you think you are you aren't anywhere on a computer and a bunch of sensors.
there is no data that i have seen suggesting otherwise. its that clear cut that many cars have disabled or removed the paddles to prevent the urge to fiddle with them when converted to race cars.
what this says is that the accurate picture of PDK is the exact opposite of the laymans view. for outright performance (very much including race track use) then auto is the only option to use. paddles are therefor really for around town and B roads when performance is reduced and one wants something to interact with as a driver to create a feel of involvement.
now to come full circle to the new announcement and the start of this post. theres a significant amount of features being sold with a "racing" message. it (feels) like a sequential, the shifts are sharper etc etc. the irony being of course is that this all flies in the face of what is actually known and clearly so from the data from actual racing.
ive always found the comments surrounding PDK of interest however of particular note are the ones regarding paddle shifts being only for race cars. for some this is a good thing, for others its the death of driving involvement. i have no horse in that race but i do have some data that might make for a better discussion.
there are PDK boxes being raced competitively and have been for some time. with cooling mods they have so far proved successful too and given the clear advantages in terms of lap time and driver fatigue the numbers will be clearly on the rise. none of this is especially interesting so far BUT, heres where it gets so.
all of the data on the boxes in racing use show clearly that for maximum performance then auto mode is the one you want. any manual interaction messes things up in a big way. the short is that there are so many sensors feeding the pdk that when left alone it knows exactly what is going on at all times and is always in the right gear (and what and when that gear is can be eye opening).
start faffing about with the paddles and the transmission is now left waiting for you, and no matter how good you think you are you aren't anywhere on a computer and a bunch of sensors.
there is no data that i have seen suggesting otherwise. its that clear cut that many cars have disabled or removed the paddles to prevent the urge to fiddle with them when converted to race cars.
what this says is that the accurate picture of PDK is the exact opposite of the laymans view. for outright performance (very much including race track use) then auto is the only option to use. paddles are therefor really for around town and B roads when performance is reduced and one wants something to interact with as a driver to create a feel of involvement.
now to come full circle to the new announcement and the start of this post. theres a significant amount of features being sold with a "racing" message. it (feels) like a sequential, the shifts are sharper etc etc. the irony being of course is that this all flies in the face of what is actually known and clearly so from the data from actual racing.
Edited by fioran0 on Monday 4th March 23:07
One assumes that the GT3 in auto mode will benefit even more from what you are saying however - faster auto shifts, in the right gear even more often?
I really miss heel and toe in my 991 at times. But the car is just so good that's my bad.
Equally I stopped listening to the Beatles long ago and prefer to spend my time looking out of the windscreen and not in the rear view mirror.
I really miss heel and toe in my 991 at times. But the car is just so good that's my bad.
Equally I stopped listening to the Beatles long ago and prefer to spend my time looking out of the windscreen and not in the rear view mirror.
the point was really that the argument (to paraphrase) always rotates thus:
paddles are stupid, i need to heel and toe at all times to feel i have control.
phfssss, paddles are awesome, im going to use them to be fast like lewis hamilton.
repeat...
in actual fact to go fast you want to not touch the paddles at all, leaving the paddles to be used to give you a third control interface when driving to the max isnt required. the exact opposite of every single discussion on PDK i have seen.
paddles are stupid, i need to heel and toe at all times to feel i have control.
phfssss, paddles are awesome, im going to use them to be fast like lewis hamilton.
repeat...
in actual fact to go fast you want to not touch the paddles at all, leaving the paddles to be used to give you a third control interface when driving to the max isnt required. the exact opposite of every single discussion on PDK i have seen.
You make the assumption that PDK drivers drive in flappy paddle mode.
Personally I find it very involving to focus on the steering, braking and positioning.
I use the paddles sometimes - at PEC we were over-riding the box as we wanted to hold onto gears for sliding about. Sometimes on the road you want to go from cruise mode to full on mode, or reverse and the PDK box has a 6 second mode delay.
Personally I find it very involving to focus on the steering, braking and positioning.
I use the paddles sometimes - at PEC we were over-riding the box as we wanted to hold onto gears for sliding about. Sometimes on the road you want to go from cruise mode to full on mode, or reverse and the PDK box has a 6 second mode delay.
anonymous said:
[redacted]
we can always hope thats for sure. as you say there may be some overlap in regards to what one wants as a driver after all.it was also important to get it out there with the PDK-S being unveiled. theres a lot of talk about how its improved manual interface features improve the performance so i wanted to try and get out there how PDK is standing at the moment when used fpr performance before the whole thing fired up again.
Out of interest, who is racing PDK 911s and where?
I maintain that the PDK vs manual argument based on "involvement" is irrelevant unless you're so bad at shifting gear that every successful change in a manual car is a high-five moment, but I appreciate there are still luddites out there who fear change
I maintain that the PDK vs manual argument based on "involvement" is irrelevant unless you're so bad at shifting gear that every successful change in a manual car is a high-five moment, but I appreciate there are still luddites out there who fear change
Is there any data out there to show times between PDK Auto, PDK Manual, and a normal Manual 'box? I'm assuming that Auto is quickest, the PDK using the paddles, then a normal manual gearbox, but it would be nice to have some data to back that up.
Either way, I still feel for me that having PDK in manual gives me the best of both worlds in terms of improving pace and giving some interaction. Very interesting to know that the data supports full auto being quicker though, thanks for sharing.
Either way, I still feel for me that having PDK in manual gives me the best of both worlds in terms of improving pace and giving some interaction. Very interesting to know that the data supports full auto being quicker though, thanks for sharing.
fioran0 said:
with the GT3 PDK news now official i wanted to share some thoughts, hopefully some of you find the points raised of interest and are able to get beyond an initial kneejerk reaction
ive always found the comments surrounding PDK of interest however of particular note are the ones regarding paddle shifts being only for race cars. for some this is a good thing, for others its the death of driving involvement. i have no horse in that race but i do have some data that might make for a better discussion.
there are PDK boxes being raced competitively and have been for some time. with cooling mods they have so far proved successful too and given the clear advantages in terms of lap time and driver fatigue the numbers will be clearly on the rise. none of this is especially interesting so far BUT, heres where it gets so.
all of the data on the boxes in racing use show clearly that for maximum performance then auto mode is the one you want. any manual interaction messes things up in a big way. the short is that there are so many sensors feeding the pdk that when left alone it knows exactly what is going on at all times and is always in the right gear (and what and when that gear is can be eye opening).
start faffing about with the paddles and the transmission is now left waiting for you, and no matter how good you think you are you aren't anywhere on a computer and a bunch of sensors.
there is no data that i have seen suggesting otherwise. its that clear cut that many cars have disabled or removed the paddles to prevent the urge to fiddle with them when converted to race cars.
what this says is that the accurate picture of PDK is the exact opposite of the laymans view. for outright performance (very much including race track use) then auto is the only option to use. paddles are therefor really for around town and B roads when performance is reduced and one wants something to interact with as a driver to create a feel of involvement.
now to come full circle to the new announcement and the start of this post. theres a significant amount of features being sold with a "racing" message. it (feels) like a sequential, the shifts are sharper etc etc. the irony being of course is that this all flies in the face of what is actually known and clearly so from the data from actual racing.
so it knows when a round about is coming up then and you are still in 7th gear 50 meters away from it ?ive always found the comments surrounding PDK of interest however of particular note are the ones regarding paddle shifts being only for race cars. for some this is a good thing, for others its the death of driving involvement. i have no horse in that race but i do have some data that might make for a better discussion.
there are PDK boxes being raced competitively and have been for some time. with cooling mods they have so far proved successful too and given the clear advantages in terms of lap time and driver fatigue the numbers will be clearly on the rise. none of this is especially interesting so far BUT, heres where it gets so.
all of the data on the boxes in racing use show clearly that for maximum performance then auto mode is the one you want. any manual interaction messes things up in a big way. the short is that there are so many sensors feeding the pdk that when left alone it knows exactly what is going on at all times and is always in the right gear (and what and when that gear is can be eye opening).
start faffing about with the paddles and the transmission is now left waiting for you, and no matter how good you think you are you aren't anywhere on a computer and a bunch of sensors.
there is no data that i have seen suggesting otherwise. its that clear cut that many cars have disabled or removed the paddles to prevent the urge to fiddle with them when converted to race cars.
what this says is that the accurate picture of PDK is the exact opposite of the laymans view. for outright performance (very much including race track use) then auto is the only option to use. paddles are therefor really for around town and B roads when performance is reduced and one wants something to interact with as a driver to create a feel of involvement.
now to come full circle to the new announcement and the start of this post. theres a significant amount of features being sold with a "racing" message. it (feels) like a sequential, the shifts are sharper etc etc. the irony being of course is that this all flies in the face of what is actually known and clearly so from the data from actual racing.
Edited by fioran0 on Monday 4th March 23:07
I have driven a few PDK cars and now own the "better , tee hee" DCT box
it's faster to change down the gears comming to a corner than leaving it in auto.
Edited by mrdemon on Tuesday 5th March 11:26
you hit the brakes at 100 mph in 7th gear 50 meters from a round about and let the computer do it, it's not as good.
a computer cannot see ahead what's coming up, or what gear you want out the corner be it 2nd or 3rd depending on how sharp.
the PDK box is anoying as it is not as manual as the DCT box also.
I ended up changing down all the time manual but let it do the up shifts as in manual it will still change gear for you , which is pants.
I would guess the GT3 box is a true manual mode.
a computer cannot see ahead what's coming up, or what gear you want out the corner be it 2nd or 3rd depending on how sharp.
the PDK box is anoying as it is not as manual as the DCT box also.
I ended up changing down all the time manual but let it do the up shifts as in manual it will still change gear for you , which is pants.
I would guess the GT3 box is a true manual mode.
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