Early 911 Choices
Discussion
Pretty much decided I was an early (pre 1973) 911, but am finding the market and choices a bit baffling. There's a huge difference in price between 911s (£75,000-£95,000) 911E (£55,000-£65.000) and 911t (£30,000-£40,000) and then there are all the various recreations and half way houses. To add to the complication, about 75% of the market seems to be lhd which I didn't oroiginally want but am now coming round to a bit.
My criteria is I want something to bring out on nice days, have fun with and which will hold value. In that regard I'm less concerened about what I pay as what value it retains, if that makes sense.
What are views on the best way forward? Is it worth paying the extra for the E or the S (given they look cosmetically very similar and they're all going to be slow compared to what we drive now) Are the recereations and half way houses worth looking at or do they have much lower long term value?
My criteria is I want something to bring out on nice days, have fun with and which will hold value. In that regard I'm less concerened about what I pay as what value it retains, if that makes sense.
What are views on the best way forward? Is it worth paying the extra for the E or the S (given they look cosmetically very similar and they're all going to be slow compared to what we drive now) Are the recereations and half way houses worth looking at or do they have much lower long term value?
An original rhd T or E should do the trick
I was told they drive better than the stratospherically priced S
I personally wouldnt go near any hybrids or recreations, its all about factory authenticity
Also i would avoid many of the specialists and buy privately. The markup on these cars is at its most bonkers. The target audience, the highly emotional nature of these purchases and mystique of the vintage world means they can charge enormous premiums.
ETA: it also doesnt help the ph has one enormous pre89 category which is inclusive or far too many models and variants. Ive been on at the to fix this but they dont seem too bothered (yet are happy to split the BMW section up almost infinitely)
I was told they drive better than the stratospherically priced S
I personally wouldnt go near any hybrids or recreations, its all about factory authenticity
Also i would avoid many of the specialists and buy privately. The markup on these cars is at its most bonkers. The target audience, the highly emotional nature of these purchases and mystique of the vintage world means they can charge enormous premiums.
ETA: it also doesnt help the ph has one enormous pre89 category which is inclusive or far too many models and variants. Ive been on at the to fix this but they dont seem too bothered (yet are happy to split the BMW section up almost infinitely)
Edited by jackal on Sunday 2nd December 10:27
Edited by jackal on Sunday 2nd December 10:31
As the modern cars have become more mainstream, volume production, consumer durables, the demand for the earlier (1964-1996) 'real' 911s is only likely to increase.
So yes, all things considered they should be an investment. But, there are a lot of buts and pitfalls. Take your time and a lot of expert advice, because you could get well and truly burnt.It can cost as much to restore a 911T as a 911RS.
So yes, all things considered they should be an investment. But, there are a lot of buts and pitfalls. Take your time and a lot of expert advice, because you could get well and truly burnt.It can cost as much to restore a 911T as a 911RS.
mollytherocker said:
ANY early 911 with a good body shell and healthy oily bits will not retain its value.
In my view, it will increase steadily or maybe dramatically!
I think the dramatic moves have already happened in pre 73 pork, they will most likely continue to creep up, with the 'special' models even more so, but i am not convinced theres a long way to go for the majority of models, theres also a lot of bad ones out there.In my view, it will increase steadily or maybe dramatically!
All just my humble opinion, and of course it is impossible to truly tell, however the down side to buying a lemon, or rust getting into your beloved car is significant and costly.
Edited by gibbon on Sunday 2nd December 11:15
Two points; I have a lhd '73 911T and a rhd 964. The driving position of the latter is offset to the left, and after an hour at the wheel my hips ache. The driving position of the old left hooker is straight, and thanks also to a low set after market Recaro seat is all-day comfortable. In addition, the roof pillars of an old 911 are so narrow that visibility is excellent, even with lhd.
Also bear in mind that 2013 is the 911's 50th anniversary, which will probably increase awareness and push values up.
IMO a pre-911 is a perfect usable classic, solid, room for a couple of nippers, excellent specialist support, lots of club/forum activities, great ride and roadholding on modern rubber, nice noise, fast enough to be fun but not so fast its frustrating, and generally very well received by other road users.
SS7
Also bear in mind that 2013 is the 911's 50th anniversary, which will probably increase awareness and push values up.
IMO a pre-911 is a perfect usable classic, solid, room for a couple of nippers, excellent specialist support, lots of club/forum activities, great ride and roadholding on modern rubber, nice noise, fast enough to be fun but not so fast its frustrating, and generally very well received by other road users.
SS7
shoestring7 said:
Two points; I have a lhd '73 911T and a rhd 964. The driving position of the latter is offset to the left, and after an hour at the wheel my hips ache. The driving position of the old left hooker is straight, and thanks also to a low set after market Recaro seat is all-day comfortable. In addition, the roof pillars of an old 911 are so narrow that visibility is excellent, even with lhd.
Also bear in mind that 2013 is the 911's 50th anniversary, which will probably increase awareness and push values up.
IMO a pre-911 is a perfect usable classic, solid, room for a couple of nippers, excellent specialist support, lots of club/forum activities, great ride and roadholding on modern rubber, nice noise, fast enough to be fun but not so fast its frustrating, and generally very well received by other road users.
SS7
Very helpful, thanks. So do you fing the 'T' pokey enough? At the moment I'm struggling to see where the extra value ids in the more expensive variants.Also bear in mind that 2013 is the 911's 50th anniversary, which will probably increase awareness and push values up.
IMO a pre-911 is a perfect usable classic, solid, room for a couple of nippers, excellent specialist support, lots of club/forum activities, great ride and roadholding on modern rubber, nice noise, fast enough to be fun but not so fast its frustrating, and generally very well received by other road users.
SS7
Although they look the same there are many little differences as you go up the model range to develop the extra performance and to cope with it. Taking a T and converting all the bits to say S spec costs a lot of money. The higher performance models are worth more as a result and also in greater demand and it is as simple as that really.
Regarding making sure your money is as safe as possible then whatever model you look at make sure you buy a car that is very solid and very original with known history. Buying a car in need of restoration can prove very costly and you usually spend more improving it than the improvement is worth. The S is the favourite for restoration as the costs are similar for all models.
LHD or RHD doesn't really matter as there is a strong market for both so personal preference.
Ian.
Regarding making sure your money is as safe as possible then whatever model you look at make sure you buy a car that is very solid and very original with known history. Buying a car in need of restoration can prove very costly and you usually spend more improving it than the improvement is worth. The S is the favourite for restoration as the costs are similar for all models.
LHD or RHD doesn't really matter as there is a strong market for both so personal preference.
Ian.
JDH1 said:
shoestring7 said:
Two points; I have a lhd '73 911T and a rhd 964. The driving position of the latter is offset to the left, and after an hour at the wheel my hips ache. The driving position of the old left hooker is straight, and thanks also to a low set after market Recaro seat is all-day comfortable. In addition, the roof pillars of an old 911 are so narrow that visibility is excellent, even with lhd.
Also bear in mind that 2013 is the 911's 50th anniversary, which will probably increase awareness and push values up.
IMO a pre-911 is a perfect usable classic, solid, room for a couple of nippers, excellent specialist support, lots of club/forum activities, great ride and roadholding on modern rubber, nice noise, fast enough to be fun but not so fast its frustrating, and generally very well received by other road users.
SS7
Very helpful, thanks. So do you fing the 'T' pokey enough? At the moment I'm struggling to see where the extra value ids in the more expensive variants.Also bear in mind that 2013 is the 911's 50th anniversary, which will probably increase awareness and push values up.
IMO a pre-911 is a perfect usable classic, solid, room for a couple of nippers, excellent specialist support, lots of club/forum activities, great ride and roadholding on modern rubber, nice noise, fast enough to be fun but not so fast its frustrating, and generally very well received by other road users.
SS7
My one is knackered and I'm looking at various upgrades, but that's the thing with old 911's; they're like a big mix and match set - I could drop in anything from a hot 2.4 to a 3.6 Varioram.
SS7
Phillip Raby has this one for sale:
http://www.findaporsche.com/showroom/porsche-911t/
It has a 2.4 engine at the moment, but the original comes with the car. Aside from originality, are there advantages/disadvantages to the 2.4 over the earlier engine? Any thoughts on how this car stacks up genreally? It seems to tick a lot of boxes if the money has been spent well on it.
http://www.findaporsche.com/showroom/porsche-911t/
It has a 2.4 engine at the moment, but the original comes with the car. Aside from originality, are there advantages/disadvantages to the 2.4 over the earlier engine? Any thoughts on how this car stacks up genreally? It seems to tick a lot of boxes if the money has been spent well on it.
jackal said:
An original rhd T or E should do the trick
I was told they drive better than the stratospherically priced S
You were told wrong .I was told they drive better than the stratospherically priced S
Very rare you'll find any early car that drives the same as another. To say one model drives 'better' than another is misleading .
Everyone has their own idea of their perfect car ..... Some like a relaxed tourer with a nice torquey motor .... Others like a high reving screamer to chuck about . Neither is better than he other.
Me ? I prefer the S
One more thing , these cars are up to 50 years old now .... A dog will drive like a dog.
hot66 said:
You were told wrong .
Very rare you'll find any early car that drives the same as another. To say one model drives 'better' than another is misleading .
Everyone has their own idea of their perfect car ..... Some like a relaxed tourer with a nice torquey motor .... Others like a high reving screamer to chuck about . Neither is better than he other.
Me ? I prefer the S
One more thing , these cars are up to 50 years old now .... A dog will drive like a dog.
I agree. Better choice may be a nice 964 for less cash Very rare you'll find any early car that drives the same as another. To say one model drives 'better' than another is misleading .
Everyone has their own idea of their perfect car ..... Some like a relaxed tourer with a nice torquey motor .... Others like a high reving screamer to chuck about . Neither is better than he other.
Me ? I prefer the S
One more thing , these cars are up to 50 years old now .... A dog will drive like a dog.
hot66 said:
You were told wrong .
Very rare you'll find any early car that drives the same as another. To say one model drives 'better' than another is misleading .
Everyone has their own idea of their perfect car ..... Some like a relaxed tourer with a nice torquey motor .... Others like a high reving screamer to chuck about . Neither is better than he other.
Me ? I prefer the S
One more thing , these cars are up to 50 years old now .... A dog will drive like a dog.
+1. I found T too slow. Not much difference twixt the E and S in normal driving, but at the upper end of the rev range the S shows its class (and sounds fab). And the Recaro seats are great.Very rare you'll find any early car that drives the same as another. To say one model drives 'better' than another is misleading .
Everyone has their own idea of their perfect car ..... Some like a relaxed tourer with a nice torquey motor .... Others like a high reving screamer to chuck about . Neither is better than he other.
Me ? I prefer the S
One more thing , these cars are up to 50 years old now .... A dog will drive like a dog.
But key point is to find a good one - a rough or poorly restored car will be a dog whatever the spec.
Edited by drmark on Sunday 2nd December 20:29
hot66 said:
jackal said:
An original rhd T or E should do the trick
I was told they drive better than the stratospherically priced S
You were told wrong .I was told they drive better than the stratospherically priced S
Very rare you'll find any early car that drives the same as another. To say one model drives 'better' than another is misleading .
Everyone has their own idea of their perfect car ..... Some like a relaxed tourer with a nice torquey motor .... Others like a high reving screamer to chuck about . Neither is better than he other.
Me ? I prefer the S
One more thing , these cars are up to 50 years old now .... A dog will drive like a dog.
I am sure everyone has an opinion on early 911s - i have driven quite a few and have mine so happy to share them for what it's worth.
Very much depends on what you want to do with them and how you drive. A nice T can be great fun and good tourer. The E more so and has the advantage of a useful amount of extra power and torque. The S is great fun if you enjoy driving a little more vigourously. I personally find the T a little too slow and I think a lot of the "magic" of an early 70s 911 lies in the MFI so I would say plump for an E or S depending on your budget and / or driving style. A key thing though is buy the best you can afford as a I would rather a great E than a poor S. All cost similar money to out right and look for evidence of previous expenditure, especially on the body shell.
Hot rods, replicas, back dates all have their place and I compeletly see why they are an attractive proposition. They can be great to drive and very good value in the short term. They will cost the same to run though and always have a very limited resale market which means lower values and it could take a while to get out of one if you need to liquidate quickly. I think experience has shown that people pay for originality and history so I think money is much safer in a good original car.
My suggestion - buy the best you can afford, ideally a really nice E and enjoy safe in the knowledge you have a great all rounder. If your budget is better, a nice S is a car that you can do pretty much everything in .... touring, sunday morning blast, the odd track day etc. Avoid replicas / back dates, especially the expensive ones, as what you are really buying is a very expensive 911 T or SC in drag that has no provenance and will make it difficult for you to get your money back (unless you buy it very, very cheap in the first place).
Very much depends on what you want to do with them and how you drive. A nice T can be great fun and good tourer. The E more so and has the advantage of a useful amount of extra power and torque. The S is great fun if you enjoy driving a little more vigourously. I personally find the T a little too slow and I think a lot of the "magic" of an early 70s 911 lies in the MFI so I would say plump for an E or S depending on your budget and / or driving style. A key thing though is buy the best you can afford as a I would rather a great E than a poor S. All cost similar money to out right and look for evidence of previous expenditure, especially on the body shell.
Hot rods, replicas, back dates all have their place and I compeletly see why they are an attractive proposition. They can be great to drive and very good value in the short term. They will cost the same to run though and always have a very limited resale market which means lower values and it could take a while to get out of one if you need to liquidate quickly. I think experience has shown that people pay for originality and history so I think money is much safer in a good original car.
My suggestion - buy the best you can afford, ideally a really nice E and enjoy safe in the knowledge you have a great all rounder. If your budget is better, a nice S is a car that you can do pretty much everything in .... touring, sunday morning blast, the odd track day etc. Avoid replicas / back dates, especially the expensive ones, as what you are really buying is a very expensive 911 T or SC in drag that has no provenance and will make it difficult for you to get your money back (unless you buy it very, very cheap in the first place).
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