True hardcore drivers

[Steve Rance]

How many of you guys would buy a paired down pure driving tool like the Clubsports of old if Porsche made one? Light, no Air con, no driver aids, no carpets, superb chasis and engine?

[nsm3]

Judging by the relatively low take up of Spyders and Cayman R's, I doubt there wouldl be sufficient interest for Porsche to produce one?

That said, GT3's are in a similar low volume position, but then they need those for homologation of the racers, which probably explains why they persist with them?

I wouldn't want to buy a completely bare bones car - had a Lotus for that.

[Steve Rance]

I don't consider the GT3 to be a hardcore car. The 996RS is considered by Porsche to be the closest car they have made to being a racing car. The only options were; carpets, halogens and black or white cage. I was dissapointed that it had carpets. Didn't need em. Spiders and Caymen R's are nice cars but not hardcore in the context of my question.

[F3RNANDO]

Just a heater and wipers - I'm in

But sadly Porsche would charge a huge ransom for so few parts d

[LaurasOtherHalf]

Of the old clubsports though, how may did they sell, 20 or so? Plus wasn't the idea more that they were essentially a race car that amateurs could buy to use of a weekend at club events?

I could justify it with my R26.r megane, but like the Porsche rs' it still came with carpets & air con, which made sense as it meant it was habitable for the drive across Europe & performed well when you got there.

I think they've got the balance fairly right with them now (or had with the 996), you don't strictly need carpets, sound deadening, sat nav or leather headlining, but it makes it more comfortable if you do. Stops the other half moaning about it too

[CK_N4S]

I would rate such a dedicated car very highly for my specific purposes of having a car purely for track use.

Right now my GT3 is taking some beating, and while being built for the purpose it shines through that in essence it is a road car. IT's heavy on tyres and brakes. Especially on the smaller tracks in Sweden which seem more ideally suited for gokarts and caterhams.

Would love something that was real lightweight focused, with the engine out back and a 9000rpm redline Would not mind if it had the proportions of a cayman rather than the shiplike proportions of the 991.

CK

[supermono]

I think I would. Every time I get back in my relatively bloated 996 gt2 after driving a modern 911 i'm pleased to have what rawness that delivers back.

I think looking at the 991 it's hard to imagine how they could get back to anything remotely described as pared down. Look at all that interior for a start. I seriously doubt even the GT3 is going to be anywhere near as lithe as 997 GT cars never mind 996 or earlier.

SM

[juansolo]

Steve Rance said:

How many of you guys would buy a paired down pure driving tool like the Clubsports of old if Porsche made one? Light, no Air con, no driver aids, no carpets, superb chasis and engine?

Wanted them to do that with the Cayman R and had money put aside for it if they had. Instead they did a parts bin special. Nice car, don't get me wrong. But you stick an R moniker on a Porsche and you expect something a bit different to what we got. Shame.

The new cars are just too big for me to be bothered about it these days.

nsm3 said:

Judging by the relatively low take up of Spyders and Cayman R's, I doubt there wouldl be sufficient interest for Porsche to produce one?

Also a fair point. They were far from hardcore and the first thing people did when they bought them was option them back up again, missing the point entirely.

Edited by juansolo on Thursday 25th October 08:50

[hornbaek]

Drove a KTM Crossbox around the Red Bull Ring in Austria last week end. 600kg carbon tub with no driver aids, no windscreen and no seat padding or anything that looks or feels like dampening. Great fun with a lot of drifting. Quite a difference to my GT3 RS 4.0.

[J-P]

Steve Rance said:

How many of you guys would buy a paired down pure driving tool like the Clubsports of old if Porsche made one? Light, no Air con, no driver aids, no carpets, superb chasis and engine?

Depends on how much it was. If it cost £200k it's a moot point as I couldn't afford one anyway but if it was a reasonable price - a pared back racer would be just the ticket. I think you'd have to offer some creature comforts as an option to appeal to a wider market. But if it was simply excellent to drive, with a great atmospheric and with a superb manual 'box, then yes count me in!

[Nurburgsingh]

Isn't that a cup car??

[Fulla]

Are we talking Clubsports like the 968 and 911 from the 80's or GT3 clubsports?
If it is the 80's cars then I would, but with all the electronic trickery I doubt they could build a base CS. I remember seeing a TV show where they turned off all the R8's electronics and it was undrivable. I wonder if this would be the case with the modern 991?

[juansolo]

Weight is the key. Less weight means you can use smaller brakes, smaller wheels, etc, which means less weight. It's Murray's circle of lightness (or whatever he called it). Weight is the enemy on track more than anything else and we've strayed far too far from anything that could be considered light for track use.

1000kgs should be the target (if not the limit) for a light weight track car IMO. That way it doesn't crucify you on consumables like the current kit does. It doesn't limit the amount of time you can have out there because it's so damned big that you've got to let it all cool down. The technology exists to do this, but we're all obsessed by ever bigger power and the ability for it to do be a great track car AND a great road GT. You cannot make a car do both. There has to be a compromise and in all honesty, given the amount of GT3's that actually get tracked, I suspect that Porsche have got the balance right for the market that buys the bulk of their cars.

[juansolo]

J-P said:

Steve Rance said:

How many of you guys would buy a paired down pure driving tool like the Clubsports of old if Porsche made one? Light, no Air con, no driver aids, no carpets, superb chasis and engine?

Depends on how much it was. If it cost £200k it's a moot point as I couldn't afford one anyway but if it was a reasonable price - a pared back racer would be just the ticket. I think you'd have to offer some creature comforts as an option to appeal to a wider market. But if it was simply excellent to drive, with a great atmospheric and with a superb manual 'box, then yes count me in!

Yeah, also a fair point. You'd have to be talking Cayman money for something like that to be viable to the sort of people that buy Atoms, Lotus, Radicals, Caterhams and old race cars. Which is the market for that sort of thing. People with the sort of disposable income to track a GT3RS can generally afford to spunk thousands on tires and brakes for a couple of track days, so are probably quite happy with what they've got.

Porsche will have thought about this, they're not daft. It's the same reason we don't have a hardcore Cayman, because if they thought it would sell they'd do it. What sells is the 911, the Cayenne and the Panamera. Hence you get a Panamera GTS and not a Cayman GTS.

Edited by juansolo on Thursday 25th October 09:17

[mollytherocker]

I think no carpet would be a step too far for me.

We all use our cars differently and I would suggest a standard GT3 is perfect for me. I want a car that can be used as a relatively hardcore tourer but be capable and entertaining on good roads and track.

MTR

[Wild Card 911]

A good example of Porsche´s "less for more" philosophy in a truly focused driver´s car was the 964RS Basic. With around 1800 being (eventually) sold at a time when the economy wasn´t particularly good, it shows what could be done. The understatement character of the RS (no wings and graphics) was a minus point for many, the fact that it was more hardcore than most customers had expected was legendary.

It wasn´t just the 10 hp increase combined with 140Kg weight loss that did it, it was the way it was achieved that made the difference.

The fact that these days, after all the "bells and whistles" performance cars have their 15 minutes, it is refreshing to experience a car that is very little show and an amazing amount of go, whilst offering driver involvement approaching the level of a Super 7 or Elise.

My opinion is massively biased by the fact that I have spent the last few months clocking up many miles in one, but who needs balanced objectivity to judge a hardcore driver´s car.

[noneedtolift]

I am still in a position where I am torn between my 997RS and a 997Cup which I also drive regularly.
The thing for me is, that I kept (sensibly) modifying my RS to a point where I would feel like raping the car if I go any further (like stripping the interior etc.) as it still is and always will be a road car and I wouldn't be doing the value of the car any favours...

I have also noticed that I hardly ever drive the RS on the road anymore, so really everything points towards getting rid of it and stick to the cup car, but I also hate the hassle with having to trailer the car etc. as now I drive the car to the venues (I know, I am asking for being stranded - had good luck so far) - I have to cover large distances here to get to and from the tracks.

Guess for me the solution would be a cup car that fits a set of wheels and is road legal
I would think that making for example a 996/997 Cup road legal and more road useable would make more sense than modifying/stripping a road car economically (think residuals and component cost)?

[J-P]

juansolo said:

It's the same reason we don't have a hardcore Cayman, because if they thought it would sell they'd do it. What sells is the 911, the Cayenne and the Panamera. Hence you get a Panamera GTS and not a Cayman GTS.

Edited by juansolo on Thursday 25th October 09:17

But the Cayman is really a connoisseur's car. For most people (non-car nuts) it represents spectacularly bad value for money because you can buy the convertible version for quite a lot less (which isn't true for any other manufaturer), so it appeals to a far smaller audience anyway. I think a hradcore Cayman would actually sell pretty well as the type of people that buy Caymans are likely to want the best driver's car, otherwise why wouldn't you just get the Boxster?

I could do without carpets, an Elise doesn't have them and the lack of them in my view increases it's appeal, not the opposite.

[996GT2]

supermono said:

I think looking at the 991 it's hard to imagine how they could get back to anything remotely described as pared down. Look at all that interior for a start. I seriously doubt even the GT3 is going to be anywhere near as lithe as 997 GT cars never mind 996 or earlier.

Exactly the way I see it, I just can't see the new GT3s being in line with what the GT3 was when it started out - it'll be quick and no doubt brilliant but next to a mk1 996 GT3 it'll be like ipod vs vinyl.

I had a passenger ride in a 996 RS and I'd say it's the closest I've been to a racing car, it's where my money would go if I wanted a GT3.

[HokumPokum]

J-P said:

But the Cayman is really a connoisseur's car. For most people (non-car nuts) it represents spectacularly bad value for money because you can buy the convertible version for quite a lot less (which isn't true for any other manufaturer), so it appeals to a far smaller audience anyway. I think a hradcore Cayman would actually sell pretty well as the type of people that buy Caymans are likely to want the best driver's car, otherwise why wouldn't you just get the Boxster?

I could do without carpets, an Elise doesn't have them and the lack of them in my view increases it's appeal, not the opposite.

coming from a fellow Cayman R owner, I totally agree. In all honest, I would need AC. Otherwise, wet trackdays become a bit of a bother (with windows up) and I like wet trackdays

but other than that, I would honest prefer a base spec cayman (that's right.. the 2.7) without carpets, and all other toys bar AC to achieve a weight loss of 200kg or more. That to me would be sublime. 1100kg with 265 HP= 241 HP /ton.. comfortably away from any 911 or cayman R so not to overlap any of the boys that are willing to pay for HP and brand prestige..


make it 5k cheaper than a base boxster and now......now we are talking.