front, rear or 4 wheel drive?
Discussion
Well, I've got a beefy integrale 16v. That is 4wd with rear whell bias so no dodgy understeer (well not when the throttle is applied anyway 
). I would say that for general driving, this would most likely be the fastest. FWD is the saftest cos it is hard to get it wrong, same with standard 4WD. But could you ever beat RWD for tail out fun? Probably not, and that is why I'm now after a Tiv or Caterham type, maybe a nice blackbird engined one I've seen
). I would say that for general driving, this would most likely be the fastest. FWD is the saftest cos it is hard to get it wrong, same with standard 4WD. But could you ever beat RWD for tail out fun? Probably not, and that is why I'm now after a Tiv or Caterham type, maybe a nice blackbird engined one I've seen 
quote:
What the HELL were Lotus thinking???
Making the fastest car from A to B perhaps? The M100 Elan had this claim for many years. The problem with the M100 Elan was the Bias that you show, (go for a ride in one you will be amazed). Also the problem was they lost money on it, thats why it was scraped. If you wanted an excellent handling car but don't want to be losing the back-end then the M100 was perfect.
BTW F1 are RWD 'cos they drive on a circuit. Rally cars that drive on ordinary roads are either 4WD or FWD.
Basically its horses for courses if you want the car to slide its backend out on power then RWD if you want a car that will understeer in the corners and uses brakes to oversteer then its FWD.
We thrashed this one out at length before. I won't repeat my comments as I managed to upset some FWD owners 
www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?p=4&f=23&t=5827
(I hacked that URL from the search facility - hope it works for all...)
www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?p=4&f=23&t=5827
(I hacked that URL from the search facility - hope it works for all...)
quote:
BTW F1 are RWD 'cos they drive on a circuit. Rally cars that drive on ordinary roads are either 4WD or FWD.
Rally cars are FWD/4WD because they are based on production vehicles and production vehicles are FWD for maximising cabin space - simple as that. It has absolutely NOTHING to do with the handling characteristics, which can be "dialled" to give understeer or oversteer, if the engineers know what they are doing when they develop the car... However, generally, FWD will understeer, RWD will oversteer and 4WD will understeer... Pick what you want. 4WD is not the panacea to handling ills, all it does it minimise the potential for power-on wheel spin/slip.
quote:
Hello Smeagol - I beg to differ - Driven rear drive sports cars for years - Also driven the M100 Elan and thought it was lovely to drive and yes, handled very well indeed! BUT... the front drive was dull. Current car is a 7 which is an older Lotus design. Tricky to get right at high speed cornering if you aren't very sensitive but if you know how to balance the car correctly will outcorner any front drive car going. Hate to be argumentative so I will summarise by saying that I like to keep front drive for my every day drive and HAVE to have rear drive on a sports car - and please don't get me wrong - I enjoyed driving the Elan and think it is one of the nicest looking cars of it's time.
Well you're on your own Mungo, every reviewer of the M100 Elan said that it was THE best and whilst you may be a superb driver they said for the average driver if you put a set of RWD supercars and the M100 Elan on the end of a twisty country lane the fastest would be the M100. Elise owners have commented on how much speed the Elan can take into a corner, it does take getting used to though.
I have also driven both the 7 and the Elise/Exige and can tell you a well set up Elan will run rings round the 7 on twisty stuff, although the Elan was sensitive to knocks so suspension needed to be checked regularly that the set-up was right (maybe yours wasn't).
But as I said in my post, its horses for courses you clearly want a car which hangs its tail out. I didn't esp as I could only afford one car so it had to also cope if the weather was dodgy (the 7 is definately not a winter car). Some people call it dull but I got my thrills from being able to drive all year round with supercar handling. I had one for 4.5 years and it never failed to put a smile on my face.
quote:
Rally cars are FWD/4WD because they are based on production vehicles and production vehicles are FWD for maximising cabin space - simple as that. ..... 4WD is not the panacea to handling ills, all it does it minimise the potential for power-on wheel spin/slip.
Strange you seem to argue then you last sentence actually backs up what I was saying Rally cars is all about getting power down and avoiding wheel spin.
Also just as an aside rally cars are safer because they understeer, sliding sideways is the fastest/safest way to negotiate the bend on slippy surfaces. Rally cars are also on the edge its better to slide into a wall using the side than to rip you back end off, or find yourslef facing the wrong way and you can't turn round. So you'll find that most are set-up to understeer. Also the RWD rally cars were stomped on by FWD cars when they came on the scene. Notice BMW don't rally.
Have a nice day
>> Edited by smeagol on Thursday 13th June 19:01
In summary
I have nothing against RWD (in fact I love 'em too) but one bit I don't like is the snobbery and closed minds you get if someone tries something different. Everybody P*ssed themsleves when Colin Chapman put the engine at the back (other racers had done it and weren't sucessful). Look at F1 now.
Daring to be different was part of Lotus's Heratage. The M100 Elan was a practical sports car which you could drive all year round with supercar handling. It still puts an awful lot of other manufacturers in their place with FWD cars.
I absolutley agree that RWD cars can be more fun if you like being on the edge. BUT the original post was which is safest and I'm sorry chaps the answer is 4WD, FWD then RWD.
I have nothing against RWD (in fact I love 'em too) but one bit I don't like is the snobbery and closed minds you get if someone tries something different. Everybody P*ssed themsleves when Colin Chapman put the engine at the back (other racers had done it and weren't sucessful). Look at F1 now.
Daring to be different was part of Lotus's Heratage. The M100 Elan was a practical sports car which you could drive all year round with supercar handling. It still puts an awful lot of other manufacturers in their place with FWD cars.
I absolutley agree that RWD cars can be more fun if you like being on the edge. BUT the original post was which is safest and I'm sorry chaps the answer is 4WD, FWD then RWD.
I agree, 4WD is undoubtedly the fastest.
Is it the most fun though?
IMHO Rearwheel drive is more fun because you can powerslide, which is alot harder to do on tarmac in a 4WD car (rear-wheel bias or not).
Dont think it matters really, i mean the Lamborghini Mankymango is 4WD and i dont hear any jurnos rueing the loss of RWD.
Whatever floats your boat
Is it the most fun though?
IMHO Rearwheel drive is more fun because you can powerslide, which is alot harder to do on tarmac in a 4WD car (rear-wheel bias or not).
Dont think it matters really, i mean the Lamborghini Mankymango is 4WD and i dont hear any jurnos rueing the loss of RWD.
Whatever floats your boat
Well, I must say that it is easy to get my car to do controlled powerslides. It has enough power to make it do that, even though it is 4wd, I don't do that too much as with the camber etc dialled in it already eats tyres. I have had TVR's, Corvettes, allsorts trying to keep up with me on country roads, the only thing that came close (absolutely spanked me to oblivion), was a Skyline GTR, not atandard.
I would say that my car has one of the best set ups you could want. It will oversteer when I want it to, and will be neutral when I don't, it is an almost perfect balance, so whilst mr TVR is in the same corner waiting to be able to plant his foot, I have already done it.
I do appreciate rear drive cars as I've already said, I want my next car to be a 911, TVR or a bike engined caterham. But in reality, the set up I have is amazing, I just want more fun. In answer to the original question: 4wd
I would say that my car has one of the best set ups you could want. It will oversteer when I want it to, and will be neutral when I don't, it is an almost perfect balance, so whilst mr TVR is in the same corner waiting to be able to plant his foot, I have already done it.
I do appreciate rear drive cars as I've already said, I want my next car to be a 911, TVR or a bike engined caterham. But in reality, the set up I have is amazing, I just want more fun. In answer to the original question: 4wd
quote:
Strange you seem to argue then you last sentence actually backs up what I was saying Rally cars is all about getting power down and avoiding wheel spin.
Also just as an aside rally cars are safer because they understeer, sliding sideways is the fastest/safest way to negotiate the bend on slippy surfaces. Rally cars are also on the edge its better to slide into a wall using the side than to rip you back end off, or find yourslef facing the wrong way and you can't turn round. So you'll find that most are set-up to understeer. Also the RWD rally cars were stomped on by FWD cars when they came on the scene. Notice BMW don't rally.
Have a nice day
>> Edited by smeagol on Thursday 13th June 19:01
Where do you get your information from???
BMW dont rally because they dont have a 4 wheel drive - they regularly contended (and won) rallies in the 80's/90's until the advent of 4WD in Gp A (?) stopped them. (Cosworths and BMW M3's - Irish tarmac events - wonderful stuff!)
Front wheel drive will NEVER be the quickest way round a corner, the weight transfer mitigates against that, reducing load on driving/driven wheels, whereas RWD provides better traction out of corners, as more "weight" is transferred to the driving wheels. This is a case of having something do one job well (steer or drive) and two things poorly.... (FWD wheel spin, torque steer ...). This is where 4WD wins, as the power (torque) to each wheel is lower then either FWD or RWD, hence reducing the chance of wheelspin (assuming cars with similar power, etc...)
Raly cars are NOT set up to understeer - the search is always to get a car that is neutral/slight oversteer, as the straighter you can keep the front wheels wrt the direction of motion of the car, the more grip you will create..., hence the tendency for "hanging the tail out".... (its all to do with slip angles and so on - I can't rememeber all the details...)
My days are always nice thanks! (spesh when I get a chance to think about posts on here!)
I agree that FWD will only ever be quicker than RWD in extreme circumstances. However RWD can be quicker than 4WD. One big disadvantage with 4WD is power loss. My car puts out about 330bhp, this is measured, as usual, at the flywheel. If you had an equally powered RWD car it would put out more bhp to the wheels. This is because 4wd loses a lot in the transmission, transfer boxes, diffs etc. I am just luck enough to have a 4wd car tourquey and powerful enough to do exactly what I want it to
quote:
I reckon front or 4 wheel drive is fastest and safest but then I'm biased.
Briefly scanning this thread, one important factor I think has been missed is how much power is sent to the axel(s) in question. An Elan would be a completely different car with 240 bhp. It is generally reckoned that anything over 200 bhp and FWD makes for a torquesteering dog (Saab turbos spring to mind). The new Alfa GTA needs traction control to reign in its 240 bhp.
For wet/poor conditions, 4WD is the safest. In the dry, I'll take RWD please and slow down when it rains.
On a related note, a colleague at work traded in His Elan S2 for an Elise S2. He reckons that the Elan S2 was probably slightly quicker through the twisties (because it is less intimidating and requires less skill near the limit), however the Elise is a far more entertaining drive.
quote:
It is generally reckoned that anything over 200 bhp and FWD makes for a torquesteering dog (Saab turbos spring to mind).
I should bloody co-co. Even with traction control on, the torque steer is just plain evil.
4WD on my Legacy offers oodles of grip on exiting wet corners and is very stable on motorways in wet or windy conditions. It does predominantly understeer but you can coax oversteer out of it if you play with throttle, brakes and steering. And it does fantastic doughnuts!
I was brought up on RWD, (Escort mk2, Marina TC
, Ford Capri x2 ) and still find RWD most satisfying. But due to my limited driving prowess, I find 4WD more confidence inspiring and ultimately quicker, particularly in the wet.Gassing Station | General Gassing [Archive] | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff