Discussion
having only bought my first car a few months ago (Triumph Spitfire 1500) and all has been trouble free until last week, i asked a friend to move the car 20 feet, he started it up first turn, then realised he had to move his motorbike. stopped it, moved the bike, tried to start the car again and the car wouldn't turn over. after looking at all of the components and checking for continuity i figured it to be the solenoid. but after replacing that i still have the same issue.
the only way i can get the car to turn over is to earth the negative side on the coil. the engine turns but does not fire.
i had a brief moment of it firing when i connected the earth to turn it over, and then released the earth. it ran until i turned off the ignition.
it seems that a little blue component was meant to connect the earth but it no longer has continuity. is that the issue?
any help will be appreciated
the only way i can get the car to turn over is to earth the negative side on the coil. the engine turns but does not fire.
i had a brief moment of it firing when i connected the earth to turn it over, and then released the earth. it ran until i turned off the ignition.
it seems that a little blue component was meant to connect the earth but it no longer has continuity. is that the issue?
any help will be appreciated
Blue thingy?
The negative side of the coil should get its earth from the distributer. Two wires some off it, one goes to the rev counter one goes to the dizzy.
When you say doesn't turn over, do you mean the starter doesnt turn? or it doesn't fire?
check all the earths in the ignition circuit
http://www.triumphspitfire.com/images/wiring/78dia...
The negative side of the coil should get its earth from the distributer. Two wires some off it, one goes to the rev counter one goes to the dizzy.
When you say doesn't turn over, do you mean the starter doesnt turn? or it doesn't fire?
check all the earths in the ignition circuit
http://www.triumphspitfire.com/images/wiring/78dia...
Nice clear photos 
wiring is bad you should never have wire strands showing they should be inside protected by the sleeving or connector, the thick black and brown wires are particularly bad
the wiring diagram shows a ‘Drive Resistor’ on the dissy connected with white/blue wire so it could be that?
ballast resistor wire can sometimes cause fun but before that I think a post I’ve just put for a Midget 1500 (which has the Triumph 1500 engine) may well apply especially as the car is new to you and the state of that wiring
have a look at my other posts for what I recommend for potential and new classic owners as I always put one of the worst things about classics is the previous and (some) present owners
wiring is bad you should never have wire strands showing they should be inside protected by the sleeving or connector, the thick black and brown wires are particularly bad
the wiring diagram shows a ‘Drive Resistor’ on the dissy connected with white/blue wire so it could be that?
ballast resistor wire can sometimes cause fun but before that I think a post I’ve just put for a Midget 1500 (which has the Triumph 1500 engine) may well apply especially as the car is new to you and the state of that wiring
have a look at my other posts for what I recommend for potential and new classic owners as I always put one of the worst things about classics is the previous and (some) present owners
na said:
most mechanical and electric servicing and repairs on these cars boil down to just cleaning and lubricating or protecting for electrics
battery needs to be in good condition and the battery lugs need to be fully clean, the cables clamps clean and fitted securely and protected with spray stuff or Copperease to protect against fur or gung build up
(the battery itself should be held secure by the clamping bar so it doesn't move at all)
work from the battery forward and make sure all wires, cables and connections are clean - secure (tight) and that wires and cables aren't frayed or broken - and protected (wires sleeved, connections insulated or covered with protective stuff)
earths are very important especially for starting, the earth cable to battery and the earth straps from engine to body work and I think a 79 may have another earth strap
for things like spade connectors if they are tight (and well protected) just taking them off and putting them back on a few times can sometimes be enough to clean them if the terminal they connected to isn’t furred or gunged up
I should have put earths in my first post, usually do as after low battery it'd be the next thing I'd think of from your original post
as FRM has put, if you check and clean, secure and protect all your connections now and sort out any faulty cables you'll know they're in good condition and will help to prevent future problems and make other problems easier to find and repair
battery needs to be in good condition and the battery lugs need to be fully clean, the cables clamps clean and fitted securely and protected with spray stuff or Copperease to protect against fur or gung build up
(the battery itself should be held secure by the clamping bar so it doesn't move at all)
work from the battery forward and make sure all wires, cables and connections are clean - secure (tight) and that wires and cables aren't frayed or broken - and protected (wires sleeved, connections insulated or covered with protective stuff)
earths are very important especially for starting, the earth cable to battery and the earth straps from engine to body work and I think a 79 may have another earth strap
for things like spade connectors if they are tight (and well protected) just taking them off and putting them back on a few times can sometimes be enough to clean them if the terminal they connected to isn’t furred or gunged up
I should have put earths in my first post, usually do as after low battery it'd be the next thing I'd think of from your original post
as FRM has put, if you check and clean, secure and protect all your connections now and sort out any faulty cables you'll know they're in good condition and will help to prevent future problems and make other problems easier to find and repair
Edited by na on Friday 3rd August 14:59
That blue thing is called a condensor. it should sit under the legs of the solenoid, getting an earth from the solenoids mounting bolts. I can't remember where it connects, negative side of the coil i think.
That wiring is horrific! stop now, fix it before you do anything else otherwise you will just encounter more problems.
All those brown wires are thick enough to power a house! you should only have one large thick brown wire and one thinner brown wire. Someone has added lots to it, not surprised you got wiring problems, nice big earth strap in there though. Seriously strip it out and start over, then diagnose problems.
heres a handy pic to get you started
Sorry i can't be more specific been a while since my spit electrics were std, best bet would be to ask on the club triumph forum.
That wiring is horrific! stop now, fix it before you do anything else otherwise you will just encounter more problems.
All those brown wires are thick enough to power a house! you should only have one large thick brown wire and one thinner brown wire. Someone has added lots to it, not surprised you got wiring problems, nice big earth strap in there though. Seriously strip it out and start over, then diagnose problems.
heres a handy pic to get you started
Sorry i can't be more specific been a while since my spit electrics were std, best bet would be to ask on the club triumph forum.
Edited by mattius on Friday 3rd August 15:39
another great photo there - Matt OK if I pinch that for stock please?
I know little about car electrics so Matt has the lead here, but, one of those brown wires is the added terminal to the ballast wire, other browns I don’t know plus there seems to be added wires – I wonder if there’s some sort of ‘immobiliser’ fitted – surely too many wires there and too many of them brown(?)
note blue/white wire unconnected (for condenser/capacitor/’Drive resistor’(?))
(Daniel) do you notice any trouble with your rev counter I wonder as its off the dissy/coil
I know little about car electrics so Matt has the lead here, but, one of those brown wires is the added terminal to the ballast wire, other browns I don’t know plus there seems to be added wires – I wonder if there’s some sort of ‘immobiliser’ fitted – surely too many wires there and too many of them brown(?)
note blue/white wire unconnected (for condenser/capacitor/’Drive resistor’(?))
(Daniel) do you notice any trouble with your rev counter I wonder as its off the dissy/coil
I can't remember the proper name for the 'blue thing' in your second picture as it's been ages since I needed to use on.
But I can tell you that it is a 'thing' to stop the ignition interfering with the radio - it stops cracking - you'll properly find one near the window wiper motor as well.
Can't recall having any problems with one but it might be worth disconnecting it - just in case.
But I can tell you that it is a 'thing' to stop the ignition interfering with the radio - it stops cracking - you'll properly find one near the window wiper motor as well.
Can't recall having any problems with one but it might be worth disconnecting it - just in case.
yeap thats what the blue thing does.
Don't worry about the ballast wire, they are quite robust, you will also destroy the coil if you fire 12v to it as the coil for your car takes less than 12v.
Again, check the earths, your problem is earthing. But that wiring is a bodge.
Steal whatever images you want i stole them off the US triumph site.
Don't worry about the ballast wire, they are quite robust, you will also destroy the coil if you fire 12v to it as the coil for your car takes less than 12v.
Again, check the earths, your problem is earthing. But that wiring is a bodge.
Steal whatever images you want i stole them off the US triumph site.
ok i think i have the problem down, the solenoid needs an earth to turn the starter, but with the way its wired at the moment it drains the power from the coil. so when i remove the earth from the solenoid it starts so we are getting somewhere.
so i can now start the engine, but only by earthing the solenoid, then un earthing it as the engine is spinning the wiring diagram shows an earth wire from the solenoid. which i assume is the metal baseplate.
here's a diagram of how it sits.
i'm stumped.
so we are getting somewhere. so i can now start the engine, but only by earthing the solenoid, then un earthing it as the engine is spinning the wiring diagram shows an earth wire from the solenoid. which i assume is the metal baseplate.
here's a diagram of how it sits.
i'm stumped.
I think you need to go back to basics. The coil doesn't have an earth, it has power to the plus side and a wire from the negative to the points in the dizzy. The starter solenoid needs the two heavy duty leads and a means of energising it which will come from the starter switch.
The blue thing that someone said is a condenser is actually a suppressor. The condenser goes in the dizzy and is wired to the points and earthed through the it's body where it's screwed to the dizzy. If the car ran initially and suddenly didn't then something else is wrong, did you fiddle and change the wiring? Take the Syrup tin off the coil, it may cause it to overheat. If the solenoid requires an earth then this needs to go to the engine or body, check that the thick heavy duty wires from battery to solenoid and solenoid to starter are done up properly.
BTW, that wiring is atrocious and should never pass the new MOT.
The blue thing that someone said is a condenser is actually a suppressor. The condenser goes in the dizzy and is wired to the points and earthed through the it's body where it's screwed to the dizzy. If the car ran initially and suddenly didn't then something else is wrong, did you fiddle and change the wiring? Take the Syrup tin off the coil, it may cause it to overheat. If the solenoid requires an earth then this needs to go to the engine or body, check that the thick heavy duty wires from battery to solenoid and solenoid to starter are done up properly.
BTW, that wiring is atrocious and should never pass the new MOT.
Edited by jagracer on Friday 3rd August 21:41
thats it, new it was something ---or, seemed a bit weird the condensor would be outside the dizzy lol
OP- Your starter motor gets its earth from the gearbox bellhousing it is attached too, the gearbox should get its earth from the chassis rails, but this is notoriously bad hence in your case someone has added a big braided earth strap (silver braided wire) i assume this goes to the negative terminal of the battery.
First things first, is your battery giving 12v? the starter wont turn if its less. Start with the starter, if it ain't turning it ain't gonna fire. So check the starter is getting 12v when the ignition is turned, if it is check the bolts are earthing it.
Once its turning regularly move onto the next problem, take a plug out and earth it on the engine block, check its sparking, if its sparking, check you are getting fuel ( the plugs should be damp but not soaked ) my guess is you will have flooded it by the time you get it started ( to start a flooded engine, turn it over with your foot to the floor on the accelerator until it chuggs when release it )
That should get you started.
OP- Your starter motor gets its earth from the gearbox bellhousing it is attached too, the gearbox should get its earth from the chassis rails, but this is notoriously bad hence in your case someone has added a big braided earth strap (silver braided wire) i assume this goes to the negative terminal of the battery.
First things first, is your battery giving 12v? the starter wont turn if its less. Start with the starter, if it ain't turning it ain't gonna fire. So check the starter is getting 12v when the ignition is turned, if it is check the bolts are earthing it.
Once its turning regularly move onto the next problem, take a plug out and earth it on the engine block, check its sparking, if its sparking, check you are getting fuel ( the plugs should be damp but not soaked ) my guess is you will have flooded it by the time you get it started ( to start a flooded engine, turn it over with your foot to the floor on the accelerator until it chuggs when release it )
That should get you started.
Seeing as the OP says it was running and the coil hasn't been changed, that can't be the problem, a 12v coil with a ballast resistor won't work, as the wires will only feed it 6v or the likes.
Following on from my previous post, in fixing wiring, always start from the end component and work your way back up to the top, hence start from the starter, make sure everything works before moving on to the next component up the loop.
I'd also remove everything you have changed, i.e. the syrup can, just until you get it going, then change one thing at a time. Im not sure what kinda effects the can will have to the coil electrics ( i've seen aluminium cans used before but a syrup can is nicol plated hence it conducts )
Don't do this now but, For future reference ditch the ballast resistor wire, its crap for performance, disconnect the ballast wire and give it a 12v feed instead, then obviously replace the coil with a 12v one.
Following on from my previous post, in fixing wiring, always start from the end component and work your way back up to the top, hence start from the starter, make sure everything works before moving on to the next component up the loop.
I'd also remove everything you have changed, i.e. the syrup can, just until you get it going, then change one thing at a time. Im not sure what kinda effects the can will have to the coil electrics ( i've seen aluminium cans used before but a syrup can is nicol plated hence it conducts )
Don't do this now but, For future reference ditch the ballast resistor wire, its crap for performance, disconnect the ballast wire and give it a 12v feed instead, then obviously replace the coil with a 12v one.
Edited by mattius on Saturday 4th August 10:01
Edited by mattius on Saturday 4th August 10:03
ok here is the specs as they stand.
battery reads over 12v, its almost brand new and has been freshly charged.
coil is brand new
dizzy is brand new accuspark unit.
the problem is not getting it running, its connecting the wires in such a way that it earths the solenoid but not the positive on the coil. i'm sure i can find a soloution. but at the moment i have decided to clean up the wiring and replace all of the spade connectors as well as heatshrink all the joints.
battery reads over 12v, its almost brand new and has been freshly charged.
coil is brand new
dizzy is brand new accuspark unit.
the problem is not getting it running, its connecting the wires in such a way that it earths the solenoid but not the positive on the coil. i'm sure i can find a soloution. but at the moment i have decided to clean up the wiring and replace all of the spade connectors as well as heatshrink all the joints.
yorkebar said:
the problem is not getting it running, its connecting the wires in such a way that it earths the solenoid but not the positive on the coil.
How is that a problem? Try reading my other posts or read this if you don't believe me http://www.familycar.com/Classroom/ignition.htm
and 
yorkebar said:
the problem is not getting it running, its connecting the wires in such a way that it earths the solenoid but not the positive on the coil
I might be wrong but doesn't the solonoid earth by being attached the body (of the car) by screws or bolts - check these are clean, secure and protectedyorkebar said:
i'm sure i can find a soloution. but at the moment i have decided to clean up the wiring and replace all of the spade connectors as well as heatshrink all the joints.
that will help now and in the future check your new spades fit tightly thoughand have all those wires covered better
if that blue thingy is a radio surpressor then doh! for me
check the deilate wires off your new dissy aren't, or can get, chaffed see 2:30 in on this John Twist video, there'll be loads of his other videos where the principles will apply to your car too - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dZFCRf_2c1E&lis...
like this one - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7fUbvKgmmQQ&lis...
ETA:tr7v8 posted whilst I was typing with same thought
Edited by na on Saturday 4th August 16:13
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