Clipless Pedals - Float and Knee problems
Discussion
After many years of mountain biking and no significant injuries (apart from impact damage) I got myself a road bike last year for commuting purposes. I've been running Shimano MTB SPD pedals and cleats on it and been wearing the same shoes for all my bikes but have recently been suffering from a fair bit of knee pain.
I've not paid for a 'pro' bike fit, but have read a lot of literature and been cycling for long enough to know what feels right. (saddle height, saddle position, stem length etc).
As a bit of history, on the mountain bike I would normally go out for a 20mile or so ride at the weekend and possibly get out for a spirited ride during the week and I would be capable of keeping up with my mates downhill and have the legs on them uphill by pushing a slightly higher gear but powering to the top without any trouble. Never had any niggles or warnings from my knees.
I borrowed a retro Trek Sport 370 road bike from a mate which was arguably a fair bit too small for me to check that getting a road bike was going to be the answer for the commute and did a fair few miles on it. 12 miles a day for many weeks (6 each way) and could feel that the bike was too small but no real drama. Did a few longer rides and that is where the knee pain started. I stopped riding it altogether and took a month off cycling completely in which time I bought a new B-Twin from Decathlon and have since set it up accordingly. This feels the right size and is a lot more comfortable to ride. As far as I am concerned the saddle height and position is good.
It's taken a couple of months, but the knee pain has returned (this time I have been riding the standard 12 miles a day, but thrown in an 18 mile ride 2 or 3 times a week on top).
So.... having explained the problem I am left with a un-answered questions.
1) Do the Shimano MTB SPD pedals have less float in them than a similar road cleat?
2) Bearing in mind that I have run an identical setup on my mountain bike for a few years without problem, could it be that the problem never arose because on a mtb you are much more dynamic on the bike and don't sit in the same position for long periods of time?
3) Speedplay pedals? What are peoples thoughts? They are bloody expensive so don't want to shell out if they aren't going to solve the problem.
4) What do people suggest I do next? Budget is tight and so would it be more beneficial for me to a) go to a physio b) get a bike fit c) buy some speedplay pedals?
Your advice would be greatly appreciated as not being able to cycle is a bit depressing, the only saving grace has been that the weather has been so crap!
I've not paid for a 'pro' bike fit, but have read a lot of literature and been cycling for long enough to know what feels right. (saddle height, saddle position, stem length etc).
As a bit of history, on the mountain bike I would normally go out for a 20mile or so ride at the weekend and possibly get out for a spirited ride during the week and I would be capable of keeping up with my mates downhill and have the legs on them uphill by pushing a slightly higher gear but powering to the top without any trouble. Never had any niggles or warnings from my knees.
I borrowed a retro Trek Sport 370 road bike from a mate which was arguably a fair bit too small for me to check that getting a road bike was going to be the answer for the commute and did a fair few miles on it. 12 miles a day for many weeks (6 each way) and could feel that the bike was too small but no real drama. Did a few longer rides and that is where the knee pain started. I stopped riding it altogether and took a month off cycling completely in which time I bought a new B-Twin from Decathlon and have since set it up accordingly. This feels the right size and is a lot more comfortable to ride. As far as I am concerned the saddle height and position is good.
It's taken a couple of months, but the knee pain has returned (this time I have been riding the standard 12 miles a day, but thrown in an 18 mile ride 2 or 3 times a week on top).
So.... having explained the problem I am left with a un-answered questions.
1) Do the Shimano MTB SPD pedals have less float in them than a similar road cleat?
2) Bearing in mind that I have run an identical setup on my mountain bike for a few years without problem, could it be that the problem never arose because on a mtb you are much more dynamic on the bike and don't sit in the same position for long periods of time?
3) Speedplay pedals? What are peoples thoughts? They are bloody expensive so don't want to shell out if they aren't going to solve the problem.
4) What do people suggest I do next? Budget is tight and so would it be more beneficial for me to a) go to a physio b) get a bike fit c) buy some speedplay pedals?
Your advice would be greatly appreciated as not being able to cycle is a bit depressing, the only saving grace has been that the weather has been so crap!
Well I have the same pedals on both mountain bike and road bike. I use MTB style shoes for both.
I also have a bad knee, having injured it last year.
This week I have done two 25+ mile rides on the roadie, and a couple of shorter ones on the MTB.
Whilst I could feel pressure in the knees when going uphill on the roadie, I have had no real pain or lasting discomfort.
I would suggest therefore first stop is a physio/doctor for the knees checking.
One other question for you though, how many times have you fallen off due to the cleats sticking? That was my biggest problem when I started using them.
I also have a bad knee, having injured it last year.
This week I have done two 25+ mile rides on the roadie, and a couple of shorter ones on the MTB.
Whilst I could feel pressure in the knees when going uphill on the roadie, I have had no real pain or lasting discomfort.
I would suggest therefore first stop is a physio/doctor for the knees checking.
One other question for you though, how many times have you fallen off due to the cleats sticking? That was my biggest problem when I started using them.
I've had ACL repairs on both my knees now. One a long time ago and one last year. I can't stress enough how much you can benefit form a pro fit. Road bike geometry is different to MTB.
I was riding a bike that was too big for me for a year or two and was generally fine until I started to up my riding distances from 20 miles to double. I was getting a lot of foot pain after an hour and a bit. Went for a fit and got my proper setup along with my cleats aligned. The difference is day and night.
Whenever I build a new bike (twice now since original fit up) I use the specs from pro fit and then get it tweaked in a 30min session by Cyclfit in Covent Garden.
Of all the mods etc I've spent on biking over the years a pro fit was by far the best VFM.
I was riding a bike that was too big for me for a year or two and was generally fine until I started to up my riding distances from 20 miles to double. I was getting a lot of foot pain after an hour and a bit. Went for a fit and got my proper setup along with my cleats aligned. The difference is day and night.
Whenever I build a new bike (twice now since original fit up) I use the specs from pro fit and then get it tweaked in a 30min session by Cyclfit in Covent Garden.
Of all the mods etc I've spent on biking over the years a pro fit was by far the best VFM.
timnoyce said:
I've been using cleats for about 5 years or so (I'm 26) and haven't had any problems with falling off due to cleats sticking. I've had a few stacks but the cleats haven't been the issue there, more an excess of speed and a lack of skill! ;-)
I fell off a couple of times when I got them. First time I forgot my foot was attached to the pedal and couldn't release quick enough, second was when chain came off on a steep hill and again didn't release quick enough.I do laugh about it now though.
Speedplay are the pedals The Bike Whisperer said he really liked when I saw him. I'd get those if I wanted roadie pedals.
He shimmed my shoes too and that might be useful for you.
Is the pain one side of the knee? Can be that the Q factor doesn't suit you.
I'd suggest going to see an expert rather than taking too much notice of me :-)
He shimmed my shoes too and that might be useful for you.
Is the pain one side of the knee? Can be that the Q factor doesn't suit you.
I'd suggest going to see an expert rather than taking too much notice of me :-)
OP said:
3) Speedplay pedals? What are peoples thoughts? They are bloody expensive so don't want to shell out if they aren't going to solve the problem.
They aren't cheap but you can rebuild every part of them. As for the overall cost how much pain can you put up with? IME they are the best peddle for your knees and being double entry great in use. I wouldn't use any other peddle personally and can compare them with Keo's which took lots of setting up and haven't the adjustability of the Zero's which can be set up for very little to loads of float. My first set have been on now for a year and have been used hard, they are still running perfectly.I use Speedplay Zero's, one of the reasons I went for them was because I had a bit of an issue with one of my knees and they offered a huge amount of adjustment. Knee is now fine, and I have actually wound all of the float out of the cleats.
Plus points are the double entry system, no adjustment on the pedals themselves - all of the adjustment is in the cleats, very easy to service and grease, cleat area is large so the contact with the shoe is over a wide area. Being critical the cleats are not great to walk in, cleats will take a good week to adjust before you find your correct position and the retaining screws need to be checked every few weeks of they come loose, I fixed this with a blob of locktight.
Personally I won't be looking for another pedal/cleat combo, difficult to see how you can improve on these........
Plus points are the double entry system, no adjustment on the pedals themselves - all of the adjustment is in the cleats, very easy to service and grease, cleat area is large so the contact with the shoe is over a wide area. Being critical the cleats are not great to walk in, cleats will take a good week to adjust before you find your correct position and the retaining screws need to be checked every few weeks of they come loose, I fixed this with a blob of locktight.
Personally I won't be looking for another pedal/cleat combo, difficult to see how you can improve on these........
Thanks for all the replies here chaps. I've signed up for the health scheme at work so will be able to claim for some physio next month and am going to book in for a bike fit at Velocity Cycles in Cosham as it's just down the road.
Can't come soon enough either as the sun is supposed to come out next week and it's pretty demoralising not being able to ride at the moment!
Can't come soon enough either as the sun is supposed to come out next week and it's pretty demoralising not being able to ride at the moment!
I had a similar problem, which took ages to fix:
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
Ultimately, I added a spacer to give me some more heel clearance and got cleats which give more float. Then I needed to stay off the bike for about 10 days for the knee pain to completely disappear and finally I got comfortable!
As mentioned previously, make sure saddle height isn't too high as well as getting the cleats at a comfortable angle.
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
Ultimately, I added a spacer to give me some more heel clearance and got cleats which give more float. Then I needed to stay off the bike for about 10 days for the knee pain to completely disappear and finally I got comfortable!
As mentioned previously, make sure saddle height isn't too high as well as getting the cleats at a comfortable angle.
Its because you've gone from the manly, testosterone, macho, alpha bike [MTB] to the sissy bike [Road] and your knees have decided enough is enough; they need mud, roots, loose ground and single tracks to make them happy, not cats eyes, drains and flattened hedgehogs to run over......
swerni said:
IroningMan said:
See a physio and prepare for the mild discomfort of deep friction massage of the ITBs.
ouch ouch ouchBuy a foam roller now as well, he's going to get you to buy one anyway
I have Speedplays on both my road bikes, Frogs for winter and Zeros for summer. I was recovering from my patella exploding and all the cyclists I knew recommended Speedplays for their kindness to knees.
I'd used SPDs on my mountain bike before and Speedplays feel quite different as they have no spring towards the centre position - likened to standing on an ice cube. You soon get used to it though.
I'd used SPDs on my mountain bike before and Speedplays feel quite different as they have no spring towards the centre position - likened to standing on an ice cube. You soon get used to it though.
hmm. It might sound daft but where about on the knee is the pain, top, bottom or side ? I think saddle height is more of a problem on a road bike than an MTB because whenever I ride off road I don't spend a lot of time sitting down, I always seem to have to get off my butt for some reason 
But on road I do spend miles just sitting & peddling, so the saddle height is important. Also the gearing you use, pushing higher gears does tend to make it felt in the knees whereas higher cadence on lower gears seems to have less stress.
Of course, neither of these reasons should stand in the way of the man-maths logic of an upgrade...... you simply NEED road pedals
But on road I do spend miles just sitting & peddling, so the saddle height is important. Also the gearing you use, pushing higher gears does tend to make it felt in the knees whereas higher cadence on lower gears seems to have less stress.
Of course, neither of these reasons should stand in the way of the man-maths logic of an upgrade...... you simply NEED road pedals
Markp13 said:
I changed my cleats from grey to red last year which gave me 5 degrees of float I think which feels great on my knees.
However, I now get pins and needles on my two smallest toes on my right foot after 20-25 miles. Anyone had this before or know a cure?
Shoes too tight or need the cleat positioning adjusting?However, I now get pins and needles on my two smallest toes on my right foot after 20-25 miles. Anyone had this before or know a cure?
I would recommend the OP and anyone else having comfort issues to find a bike fitter. I used http://www.thebikewhisperer.co.uk/ and the results were great. A cleat only fitting is something like £50-60 IIRC.
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