Wine snobbery?
Discussion
I have recently got back from a travel through europe whereby as the title suggests I drank the odd glass of wine here and there.
Notibly for the purpose of this thread I was in France and went in to a shop that stocked various selections of wine.
For my taste I prefer the fruity German wines but was answered with a stern french accented voice from the shop assistance that they do not stock German wine and never will.
I was then told that German wine was poor quality, poor taste and not in the same league as the French wine. My questionable expression may not have helped the situation as the guy then presumed that because I was English and not French that I knew nothing about wine and basically gave up on his helpful assistance and returned back behind the counter. (Giving the usual French gesture of rolling the eyes and shrug of shoulders as he returned to his post).
Now.... this is the first time I've visited the food/drink/restaurants section of pistonheads and this may have been discussed before, but I have two main questions :
(1) has this happened to anybody else in France?
(2) does the French guy have any merit in his comments decrobed above?
Because, my opinion is that taste is totally subjective to the individual and I find the fruity German wines to be way above the taste of the usual French ones.
Many have tried to tell me that you can't beat a good french wine..... but I have had a few 'good' french wines in my time and still its the German ones that win it for me.
Am I alone in this boat?
Notibly for the purpose of this thread I was in France and went in to a shop that stocked various selections of wine.
For my taste I prefer the fruity German wines but was answered with a stern french accented voice from the shop assistance that they do not stock German wine and never will.
I was then told that German wine was poor quality, poor taste and not in the same league as the French wine. My questionable expression may not have helped the situation as the guy then presumed that because I was English and not French that I knew nothing about wine and basically gave up on his helpful assistance and returned back behind the counter. (Giving the usual French gesture of rolling the eyes and shrug of shoulders as he returned to his post).
Now.... this is the first time I've visited the food/drink/restaurants section of pistonheads and this may have been discussed before, but I have two main questions :
(1) has this happened to anybody else in France?
(2) does the French guy have any merit in his comments decrobed above?
Because, my opinion is that taste is totally subjective to the individual and I find the fruity German wines to be way above the taste of the usual French ones.
Many have tried to tell me that you can't beat a good french wine..... but I have had a few 'good' french wines in my time and still its the German ones that win it for me.
Am I alone in this boat?
Please don't tell me this conversation was in English?!
The French are extremely protectionist - I don't think I have ever seen a foreign bottle of wine for sale in a French shop or restaurant.
What you did was gravely offensive to the shop-worker (which makes me laugh, but not at you!).
The French are extremely protectionist - I don't think I have ever seen a foreign bottle of wine for sale in a French shop or restaurant.
What you did was gravely offensive to the shop-worker (which makes me laugh, but not at you!).
From your description I think you would have got the same reaction in most places. I remember German wines being fine/acceptable/didn't know any better in the 80's or earlier but back then the taste was for medium to medium sweet. My parents will still drink this style and it's available in UK supermarkets. French wines tend towards dry.
Germany has never had a great reputation but like the UK modern styles and more appropriate climate, wines are getting better but leaning towards a dryer style as well.
Germany has never had a great reputation but like the UK modern styles and more appropriate climate, wines are getting better but leaning towards a dryer style as well.
You suggested to a Frenchman that you didn't think his country's wine was the best in the world? Was that before or after you called his mother a w
e, his wife stupid and his children ugly? You're lucky you didn't mention the cheese, or he might have had to kill you.
Personally, I think French wine is overpriced in the UK and as a result seldom drink it, but I wouldn't be looking to drink anything else in France. I'm sure he'd have found you something to your taste.
e, his wife stupid and his children ugly? You're lucky you didn't mention the cheese, or he might have had to kill you.Personally, I think French wine is overpriced in the UK and as a result seldom drink it, but I wouldn't be looking to drink anything else in France. I'm sure he'd have found you something to your taste.
Bullett said:
From your description I think you would have got the same reaction in most places. I remember German wines being fine/acceptable/didn't know any better in the 80's or earlier but back then the taste was for medium to medium sweet. My parents will still drink this style and it's available in UK supermarkets. French wines tend towards dry.
Germany has never had a great reputation but like the UK modern styles and more appropriate climate, wines are getting better but leaning towards a dryer style as well.
I think it's probably unfair to judge German wine by the styles that were offloaded cheaply to unsophisticated British consumers - there's more to German wine than Liebfraumilch.Germany has never had a great reputation but like the UK modern styles and more appropriate climate, wines are getting better but leaning towards a dryer style as well.
IMHO the French do (overall) produce the worlds greatest wines. Yes you can get excellent wines from many parts of the world but across the board I consider French wines to be "better" as a whole. However... the 80's has a lot to answer for and people who religiously only drink specific (read as expensive) appellations are missing out on many other lesser known good wines and "new name" wines produced from some of the great vineyards and Chateau which were sold off in the down turn of the late 90's. I can think of a 2004 Bordeaux I can get for about £20 which when it had the Lafite-Rothchild name attached was a "tad more"! This is where I think part of the stigma comes from, plus the fact that there are so many producers in so many regions people are just put off by what appears a very complex way of approaching wine as opposed to just saying "I like Australian shiraz". Understanding grape varieties, the growing conditions of different chateau, the weather in each region etc makes French wine seem far more complex than it really is.
An indication of how the French view there wine as summed up in a hypermarket I was in somewhere in the South. A huge selection of wines, certainly many hundreds. Some a couple of euros, some 20-30 euros. The fine wines were in locked display cases, going up to several hundred euro. One of these had the Aussie and Californian wines in, most prices 50 euro plus for what we in the UK would consider pretty much run of the mill.
An indication of how the French view there wine as summed up in a hypermarket I was in somewhere in the South. A huge selection of wines, certainly many hundreds. Some a couple of euros, some 20-30 euros. The fine wines were in locked display cases, going up to several hundred euro. One of these had the Aussie and Californian wines in, most prices 50 euro plus for what we in the UK would consider pretty much run of the mill.
otolith said:
I think it's probably unfair to judge German wine by the styles that were offloaded cheaply to unsophisticated British consumers - there's more to German wine than Liebfraumilch.
Fair enough. I think they did well playing to the what the market wanted, wine looked sophisticated even if it was Blue Nun. At the time it wasn't a joke it was what was drunk. English wine has moved on and now has a positive reputation and look at how much Australian or American wine has improved. German wine may have changed to a more modern style but their image is still in the past.otolith said:
Personally, I think French wine is overpriced in the UK and as a result seldom drink it, but I wouldn't be looking to drink anything else in France. I'm sure he'd have found you something to your taste.
In restaurants true, I find retailers like majestic have the buying power to stock good french plonk more keenly priced in relation though.But yeah, in paris the girls paid either €2 or 3 a bottle for some really quite drinkable plonk at the local 7-11... we pay more than that for cooking wine at lidl
Mermaid said:
otolith said:
Personally, I think French wine is overpriced in the UK and as a result seldom drink it, but I wouldn't be looking to drink anything else in France. I'm sure he'd have found you something to your taste.
Agreed. Cheers.It always makes me laugh when I read Perardel's wine list (I think it's online now). They're a big French wine shop in Calais catering for the more discerning booze-cruiser, nice good honest French quaffable stuff for all palates and budgets. So the list is about 20 pages long, with literally only half the back page for... "vins etrangers"- and that's it!
I think yes there is some very overpriced vinegar in French wine; but if you can make it to France there is some exceedingly good value still to be had, even though the Euro is still relatively strong.
A lot of good French stuff never leaves France- when I'm passing through I get champagne from a small local producer in Bouzy (yes really) for £14 a bottle- and what he doesn't sell he sells to Bollinger.
I think yes there is some very overpriced vinegar in French wine; but if you can make it to France there is some exceedingly good value still to be had, even though the Euro is still relatively strong.
A lot of good French stuff never leaves France- when I'm passing through I get champagne from a small local producer in Bouzy (yes really) for £14 a bottle- and what he doesn't sell he sells to Bollinger.
RichS said:
A lot of good French stuff never leaves France.
Was surprised the first time I saw "foreign" wine in a French supermarket but that was quite a few years ago now.
The French can be patronising snobs when it comes to wine. And everything else. However their wines are sublime.
I ordered a magnum of 1985 Langoa Barton in a restaurant during a birthday party I was hosting - the wine waiter thought it an "inappropriate choice", despite it being precisely the wine that we all wanted to drink. Nob. I told him too.
I would rate rate French wines above those from Germany, but it's down to personal taste ultimately.
I ordered a magnum of 1985 Langoa Barton in a restaurant during a birthday party I was hosting - the wine waiter thought it an "inappropriate choice", despite it being precisely the wine that we all wanted to drink. Nob. I told him too.
I would rate rate French wines above those from Germany, but it's down to personal taste ultimately.
Bullett said:
otolith said:
I think it's probably unfair to judge German wine by the styles that were offloaded cheaply to unsophisticated British consumers - there's more to German wine than Liebfraumilch.
Fair enough. I think they did well playing to the what the market wanted, wine looked sophisticated even if it was Blue Nun. At the time it wasn't a joke it was what was drunk. English wine has moved on and now has a positive reputation and look at how much Australian or American wine has improved. German wine may have changed to a more modern style but their image is still in the past.In spite of this, the Germans do produce some very good wines indeed.
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