Aushwitz

[eric twinge]

Anyone been?

What did you feel/think when you were there?

Thanks
ET

[Piersman2]

eric twinge said:

Anyone been?

What did you feel/think when you were there?

Thanks
ET

Went a few years ago, very interesting.

But didn't 'feel' anything like lots of overly sensitive people seem to.

I was most shocked at my OH who, as we passed a water reservoir at Birkenhau (sp?), said "Couldn't have been that bad, they had a swimming pool".

I have no jewish family connections so maybe missed a lot of poignancy involved,so maybe my thoughts are not the concensus but I personally mainly came away wondering at the logistics and numbers quoted. I couldn't reconcile how they could have processed the numbers in the time and with the facilities.

[marcosgt]

My son went on a school trip recently (And to think I cruised round the Med at his age!).

He described it as "Very Sad", but certainly didn't seem traumatised by it.

I've been to Dachau and it's got an unmistakeably sinister aura (and I'm not the kind to believe in such things generally), so I wouldn't be overly surprised if Auschwitz had too.

M.

[Hoofy]

Piersman2 said:

I have no jewish family connections so maybe missed a lot of poignancy involved,so maybe my thoughts are not the concensus but I personally mainly came away wondering at the logistics and numbers quoted. I couldn't reconcile how they could have processed the numbers in the time and with the facilities.

You saying it didn't happen? That it was a whole lie about the Nazis and the holocaust?















1)
2) Quickest PH thread to satisfy Godwin's Law?

[audidoody]

Piersman2 said:

Went a few years ago, very interesting.

But didn't 'feel' anything like lots of overly sensitive people seem to.

I was most shocked at my OH who, as we passed a water reservoir at Birkenhau (sp?), said "Couldn't have been that bad, they had a swimming pool".

I have no jewish family connections so maybe missed a lot of poignancy involved,so maybe my thoughts are not the concensus but I personally mainly came away wondering at the logistics and numbers quoted. I couldn't reconcile how they could have processed the numbers in the time and with the facilities.

Read a book:

http://tinyurl.com/cr4rua8

[chopper602]

marcosgt said:

I've been to Dachau and it's got an unmistakeably sinister aura

I took my wife there on part of our honeymoon road trip (aren't I nice!) and it's most notable for the lack of wildlife, no birds, no bugs, not even ants on the ground. Thought Oradour sue Glane in France was the same . . .

[E31Shrew]

chopper602 said:

marcosgt said:

I've been to Dachau and it's got an unmistakeably sinister aura

I took my wife there on part of our honeymoon road trip (aren't I nice!) and it's most notable for the lack of wildlife, no birds, no bugs, not even ants on the ground. Thought Oradour sue Glane in France was the same . . .

Went to Oradour a few weeks ago. Very strange atmosphere

[AM04ARO]

chopper602 said:

marcosgt said:

I've been to Dachau and it's got an unmistakeably sinister aura

I took my wife there on part of our honeymoon road trip (aren't I nice!) and it's most notable for the lack of wildlife, no birds, no bugs, not even ants on the ground. Thought Oradour sue Glane in France was the same . . .

Strange place. We went following a and were group of noisy Americans.

In the camp everything is very quiet and like you say could not recall any insects or wildlife ( said Americans were just as quiet).

They were not a death camp but still had a gas chamber and ovens which had a hook to hang people by from memory.

The whole place felt like a memorial to those that perished and it seemed to define why we went to war.

[Piersman2]

audidoody said:

Read a book:

http://tinyurl.com/cr4rua8

No need thanks , I'm already very well read up on the whole thing, which was partly one of the reasons for wanting to go and see it for myself.

[Zaxxon]

I think the same feeling can be found in certain parts of the Somme. Although birdsong can be rather poignant, at times you like to be on your own.

The Devonshhire Trench is very sobering as is Delville's Wood

It depends how much you have read about the area, or how good the tour guide is.

[pingu393]

chopper602 said:

marcosgt said:

I've been to Dachau and it's got an unmistakeably sinister aura

I took my wife there on part of our honeymoon road trip (aren't I nice!) and it's most notable for the lack of wildlife, no birds, no bugs, not even ants on the ground. Thought Oradour sue Glane in France was the same . . .

I was at Hohne Camp and visited Bergen-Belsen.

We walked along the "road of death" and there was the sound of wildlife on our left, but silence on the right. It's a very weird sensation when you can hear the guns on Luneburg Heath beyond the silence of the camp.

[cardigankid]

This is not advocacy for holocaust denial, but among all the understandable emotional reaction, try to distinguish between genuine remains of the truly horrific Reich, and post war 'Disney' style reconstructions carried out, no doubt with the best of intentions, like the 'Gas Chamber' at Dachau.

There is something extraordinarily chilling about all Nazi artefacts. Is it just that we know the back story, or is it something intrinsic to the object, be it a building, a steel helmet, or whatever? I find they repel you, instinctively, except strangely for the 1936 Olympic complex, which I have always found very impressive.

[cardigankid]

chopper602 said:

marcosgt said:

I've been to Dachau and it's got an unmistakeably sinister aura

I took my wife there on part of our honeymoon road trip (aren't I nice!) and it's most notable for the lack of wildlife, no birds, no bugs, not even ants on the ground. Thought Oradour sue Glane in France was the same . . .

I have a serious antipathy to claimed manifestations of the paranormal. I don't believe it, none of it. When I read this, I cannot help wondering if the French have been out with DDT with the specific intention of creating said atmosphere. Are the activities of the SS not sufficient? Call me a conspiracy theorist if you like, but I would burn my shoes after a visit like that.

[rhinochopig]

Aushwitz I didn't really affect me much, except for the film they show you at the start. Some of the weights of the adults they rescued where unreal - one women was a kilo heavier than our Black Labrador who's not a big or heavy dog.

What did get to me was II site Birkenau which was shocking. Aushwitz I was proof of concept, Aushwitz II was the productionised version and that I found quite disturbing. Human slaughter on an industrial scale.

If anyone ever visits Lithuania it's worth visiting their museum to the treatment of the Lithuanians by the Russians. Easily the equal of what the Nazis did to the jews.

[Silent1]

chopper602 said:

marcosgt said:

I've been to Dachau and it's got an unmistakeably sinister aura

I took my wife there on part of our honeymoon road trip (aren't I nice!) and it's most notable for the lack of wildlife, no birds, no bugs, not even ants on the ground. Thought Oradour sue Glane in France was the same . . .

That's not quite true, people would like to think it's true.

[GTIR]

That pic always gets me.


I had a chat to a German yesterday (I did mention the war) and he said Hitler was angry at the Jude for giving the USA all that compensation after WW1, then as now they control all the banks, and that's why Germany was in such a mess.
One wonders if that never happened if he would ever have been brought into power?

Anyway. It sucks either way.




(that's my summing up of the Holocaust. "it sucks")


Should it be "Holocaust" with a capital letter?

[whoami]

cardigankid said:

I cannot help wondering if the French have been out with DDT with the specific intention of creating said atmosphere.

Why?

[Piersman2]

GTIR said:

I had a chat to a German yesterday (I did mention the war) and he said Hitler was angry at the Jude for giving the USA all that compensation after WW1, then as now they control all the banks, and that's why Germany was in such a mess.
One wonders if that never happened if he would ever have been brought into power?

This is a good point. The treaty of Versaille after WW1 is blamed by many as the reason that Germany developed into the nation that it became under Hitler.

The suggestion is that it was neither harsh enough or soft enough to either totally bring Germany to it's knees or to allow it to re-industrialise successfully.

This led the Germans into years and years of industrial struggle as they tried to rebuild whilst paying their WW1 reparations. The great depression didn't help either.

This long term social despair was the bed of discontent that allowed Hitler to come on the scene and promise the people everything they wanted and win their support.

The lessons from history should be learnt from and avoided. I look at some areas of Europe now, with the suggestion that 'austerity' is the way forward for years to come , and I see a similar bed of discontent being developed. Wouldn't take much for someone of charisma to use that again.

[cardigankid]

whoami said:

cardigankid said:

I cannot help wondering if the French have been out with DDT with the specific intention of creating said atmosphere.

Why?

I don't know, to increase or preserve the effect of the place maybe. It doesn't matter. The point is I don't believe in paranormal effects. I have heard people say this of Oradour, and it is either nonsense or deliberately created.

[cardigankid]

Piersman2 said:

GTIR said:

I had a chat to a German yesterday (I did mention the war) and he said Hitler was angry at the Jude for giving the USA all that compensation after WW1, then as now they control all the banks, and that's why Germany was in such a mess.
One wonders if that never happened if he would ever have been brought into power?

This is a good point. The treaty of Versaille after WW1 is blamed by many as the reason that Germany developed into the nation that it became under Hitler.

The suggestion is that it was neither harsh enough or soft enough to either totally bring Germany to it's knees or to allow it to re-industrialise successfully.

This long term social despair was the bed of discontent that allowed Hitler to come on the scene and promise the people everything they wanted and win their support.

The lessons from history should be learnt from and avoided. I look at some areas of Europe now, with the suggestion that 'austerity' is the way forward for years to come , and I see a similar bed of discontent being developed. Wouldn't take much for someone of charisma to use that again.

Very true. If you read the history, you will see that Hitler did not come to power easily or inevitably. Failure nearly occurred many times, and even after he obtained the Chancellorship Nazi control was far from certain. However, while he openly repudiated the Versailles Treaty, other previous Chancellors, particularly Bruning, were prepared to let Germany go bankrupt to demonstrate to foreign powers that the reparations were unfinanceable. They were prepared to let the people suffer the effects of austerity to make a political point. That was a main driver in support for the Nazis, though very few appreciated what that might entail or that Hitler would subsequently and very quickly assume dictatorial power. Without it, Hitler would simply never have made it. It shows the foolishness of that kind of approach, yet European politicians have convinced themselves they can do the same two or three generations later. After the Second World War a. Germany surrendered unconditionally - there was no 'Armistice' b. The Americans stepped in with funding for reconstruction, and there was effectively no war reparation. result - peace.

The Jews were more than a convenient scapegoat for Hitler, though it has top be said that anti-semitism was both widespread and 'mainstream' in the years before WW1. He genuinely hated them. he was convinced that they had profiteered from the Great War, that they had sucked capital out of Germany when it became clear Germany would lose, precipitating the defeat, and returned to Germany during the hyperinflation of the 1920's to buy German assets at knockdown prices from starving people who could not feed their families. Some Jews did all of these things but so did many others. Result - murder of huge numbers of entirely innocent people.

It has always been self defeating for any group of people to massively enrich themselves through the suffering of others, because ultimately they have to live in the society they have defrauded. This is as true of today's merchant bankers as it was for anyone involved in pre-war Germany, but how many of them are interested in learning the lessons of history? It may not end up in an Auschwitz, but there could be unexpected and very unpleasant results all the same.

Edited by cardigankid on Friday 25th May 14:51