Motorsport at dusk - settings help plz

[kybo]

Hi,

Dusk, through the night to early dawn - what settings do you use to capture the action, instead of just headlights?

I'm thinking Le Mans and Britcar 24hr as example races. Only I've seen some cracking silhouette shots and would like to be able to replicate them.

I've only really tried once, at the Dukeries rally, and I couldn't get it right for toffee.

The headlights were a nightmare to contend with - I just kept getting flare from the lights - what settings/modes/compensation do you make to overcome this?

I have a Canon EOS60D, and will be switching between these lenses:

Sigma 70-200 F2.8, Bigma 50-500 F4.5-5.6, Sigma 17-70 F2.8-4 and Canon 28-135 F3.5-? IS.

Any general camera/shooting advice most welcome, too.

Many thanks,
Scott

[jurbie]

Shoot everything in manual setting otherwise your camera will try and compensate for the lack of light which is what is possibly causing your problems. Also be wary that your light meter doesn't get confused by the headlights so take a reading from something neutral, a patch of grass will suffice, and then ignore your light meter when it goes off the scale as the car comes into shot. Also don't shoot directly into the lights, so if the car is rounding a corner make sure it's not head on when you shoot.

Don't worry about under exposing, if it's evening then you want to try and catch some of that feeling. A perfectly exposed picture will make it seem like a normal daytime picture.

[Simpo Two]

Haven't tried that kind of thing but it sounds like a job for manual exposure. That will stop the headlights overexposing (if you get it right). Take a tripod.

[markmullen]

Slow speed panning works well in low light, turn the ISO up, 1/15th or 1/30th and pan with the car, the headlights will light up the area in front of the car, the EL number on the car will be glowing.

Combine that approach with a little flash (second curtain works well for this) and you've got a different style of shot.

If you take a tripod (or gorillapod or similar) you can go for light trails from the head or taillights which can look cool.

[AndyT350]

I'm defiantly still learning but I had a play at Britcar 24h and had some success chucking it in Manual and much trial and error (make sure you leave it in RAW so you can tweek a bit when you get home)

Lots of fun to be had though...


Britcar 24hr Silverstone 2011 (51 of 52).jpg by andydean117, on Flickr

Exhaust Flames/Glowing disks worth keep an eye out for (Panning in the dark is difficult though!)
Manual - f/5.0, ISO 800, 1/30 sec



Britcar 24hr Silverstone 2011 (47 of 52).jpg by andydean117, on Flickr

Brakelight Trail (Wish i'd taken a tripod) - this was on a park bench...
Shutter speed priority (Not sure how that worked out), f/4.0, ISO 100, 6 sec

[AndWhyNot]

A lot of trial and error to get the exposure and balance of light right.

Slow panning will be necessary but is easiest with a monopod or loose-headed tripod.

Set your autofocus mode to continuous, or prefocus if the DoF is great enough for your circumstances (combination of aperture, focal length and focal distance). Also set the AF to run from a press of the thumb on the back button if your camera has it, gives a much more consistent focus.

If you want a silhouette you need some light behind the car to create the silhouette. Find a visual reference point and time your shot for when that marker comes into view, either through the viewfinder or with your non-viewfinder eye.

To minimise flare from headlights will largely be a matter of angles/ timing but removing any filters will help also.

I'm off to LM for the first time this year, looking forward to the challenge.

[markmullen]

AndWhyNot said:

I'm off to LM for the first time this year, looking forward to the challenge.

Give me a shout if you fancy a pint, I can show you some gaps in the catch fence too.

[kybo]

I knew being lazy would one day come bite me on the ass!! Can't remember the last time I shot in Manual mode, if I'm honest
[throws things all over looking for lost manual]

What metering mode would be best - evaluative, partial?

Looks like I'm gonna have to get me some motorway or 'A' road practice in, that's for sure.

In real basic terms, once set to manual, I need to set my aperture, set a shutter speed, check img, adjust settings until desired effect achieved. Oh, and I must make sure my ISO is also set and not on 'Auto' otherwise that will try and compensate for the exposure, won't it? Am I looking for the settings to give me a stop or two (or 3) of -ve exposure on the in-camera scale?

Anything missing from this very rudimentary set of instructions (apart from skill and sanity)?

Could I get a similar result by sticking it in Tv, setting the ISO then popping some -ve exposure in-camera? If I can make this similarity it may help with the transition to Manual mode.

I'll be doing a lot of image browsing, me thinks, checking the settings used to try and gauge what a good starting point will be.

Just a question regarding the comment around the use of flash - would flash be tolerated at an event like the Britcar 24hr? The only time I ever see them in use is at a Rally.

I'll re-read the posts at some point so I may have some more questions.

Many thanks for the comments received so far,

Scott

[markmullen]

The trouble with using AV or TV modes is that the metering will be fooled by the very dark (background) and very light (headlights) so your exposures will vary wildly, better to set up, see what works by adjusting one variable at a time till you get a result you want, then leaving it in manual hence locking off the exposure so the camera doesn't get fooled.

[Crafty_]

AndyT350 said:

Britcar 24hr Silverstone 2011 (51 of 52).jpg by andydean117, on Flickr

Exhaust Flames/Glowing disks worth keep an eye out for (Panning in the dark is difficult though!)
Manual - f/5.0, ISO 800, 1/30 sec

OT but thats flipping brilliant.

When its that dark do you end up using manual focus - surely auto focus is going to fail at some point ?
I'm thinking you could focus to infinity and use a bit of trial and error to get it sharp ?

[AndWhyNot]

markmullen said:

AndWhyNot said:

I'm off to LM for the first time this year, looking forward to the challenge.

Give me a shout if you fancy a pint, I can show you some gaps in the catch fence too.

That I will do.

[Simpo Two]

kybo said:

What metering mode would be best - evaluative, partial?

With just a few bright spots whizzing about in an otherwise dark field, I'd be inclined to guess and tweak, as you state here:

kybo said:

In real basic terms, once set to manual, I need to set my aperture, set a shutter speed, check img, adjust settings until desired effect achieved. Oh, and I must make sure my ISO is also set and not on 'Auto' otherwise that will try and compensate for the exposure, won't it?

Yes and yes.

kybo said:

Am I looking for the settings to give me a stop or two (or 3) of -ve exposure on the in-camera scale?

If you're in manual, +/-EV in the normal sense doesn't really apply - just juggle shutter speed and aperture (and possibly ISO)

kybo said:

Could I get a similar result by sticking it in Tv, setting the ISO then popping some -ve exposure in-camera? If I can make this similarity it may help with the transition to Manual mode.

You're trying to copy something very simple in a complex way. It could work - but as lights whiz about you won't get the same result twice as the camera will be trying to think. In this case you don't want the camera to think; there's not enough info in the scene for it to get a hold of.

kybo said:

Just a question regarding the comment around the use of flash - would flash be tolerated at an event like the Britcar 24hr? The only time I ever see them in use is at a Rally.

Tolerance aside, will you be close enough for it to have any visible effect?

One thing you didn't mention but Crafty did is focus. Autofocus won't have enough light/contrast to lockon so it's manual focus too. But once you get it all set up, the rest should be easy and results should be consistent. Take a small torch so you can see/work the controls in darkness.

[kybo]

Simpo Two said:

kybo said:

Just a question regarding the comment around the use of flash - would flash be tolerated at an event like the Britcar 24hr? The only time I ever see them in use is at a Rally.

Tolerance aside, will you be close enough for it to have any visible effect?

One thing you didn't mention but Crafty did is focus. Autofocus won't have enough light/contrast to lockon so it's manual focus too. But once you get it all set up, the rest should be easy and results should be consistent. Take a small torch so you can see/work the controls in darkness.

Probably not, especially round Silverstone. Mines the equivalent of the Canon 430EX - don't know what the effective distance is as never tried any long range shots. It would've been in my bag for Paddock/garage shots but I wouldn't have considered using it for race shots, TBH

Thanks to you and Crafty for mentioning focus - not something I'd considered. I suppose, if I can try and get a fairly large aperture, that would help with the DOF and put more of the image in focus, better %ages in the trial and error stakes.

Simpo, thanks for taking the time to break my comments down and answer each question individually. Much appreciated.

The way I see it at the minute - the results are gonna be , erm, 'interesting'. Looking forward to it, and to the practicing.

Thanks again all,
Scott

[Simpo Two]

kybo said:

Probably not, especially round Silverstone. Mines the equivalent of the Canon 430EX - don't know what the effective distance is as never tried any long range shots. It would've been in my bag for Paddock/garage shots but I wouldn't have considered using it for race shots, TBH

Remember you can increase flash range by using a bigger aperture and raising ISO.

kybo said:

Thanks to you and Crafty for mentioning focus - not something I'd considered. I suppose, if I can try and get a fairly large aperture, that would help with the DOF and put more of the image in focus, better %ages in the trial and error stakes.

Nope, a large aperture gives you less DOF!

If you're after light trails then I'd say the most important parameter is shutter speed - for that will determine the length of the trail. So with that fixed, you then have aperture and ISO to play with to get the right exposure/exposure you want. Simples

[Hunky Dory]

I've tried this once and had absolutely dismal results, so gave up and watched the racing instead.
I do, however, feel qualified to offer two words of advice : "head torch"

[LongQ]

Flash seems to be accepted at Le Mans but frowned on a little in the UK. However no matter how powerful the flash it's not going to be great with a dark car, may not be that great with a white car either and the modern trend to put dits of highly reflective material in the car's decoration can play havoc with attempts at getting things to look 'nice' for 'car portrait' shots.

Maybe best to have a browse around on, say, Flickr and pick a few shots you would like to emulate then see if the EXIF info is available to give you a clue as to the settings used.

For light trails .... Tripod, remote shutter release cable, bulb mode.

Lens aperture set to quite wide - maybe widest. It's unlikely that absolute shaprness matters at all and in any case the subject will be at different distances (usually) as the exposure evolves. So focus for one oart of the image and don't worry too much about the rest. DoF will probably be fine anyway unless you are lucky enough to find somewhere very close to the action.

Play with ISO but you probably don't need to go too high - maybe 400? - to get decent results. Depends on the surrounding light sources, if any, and the effect they have on your exposure.

Shoot RAW (or RAW +JPG if allowed) and forget about using long exposure noise reduction.

So, having set the aperture, ISO and focus, frame the shot. Open the shutter using the remote release and hold it until your light trail composition is complete. Release the button. Check results. Consider adapting your settings if necessary.

If you want to try flash just set it to an appropriate manual value - probably FULL but maybe not if you are relatively close to the track, point it in the general direction of the subject and trip it manually using the test flash button at some point in the exposure cycle. (Adapt this concept to suit the features available for the flash - zoom and stuff for example.) Your other options would be first or second shutter firing although I'm not sure how that would fit with using bulb mode. Will have to read up an find out.

Now, if you can get fairly close to the action you may find that you can use the area near headlights to get the camera AF working (perhaps in AI servo mode?). Bang the ISO up - you can mash the noise later in the dark spots since there will be little or no detail to lose - and see what you get. Remeber that at night you are often likely to be shooting to capture an impression of the activity rather than a perfectly sharp 'portrait' so you can approach the subject with some, shall we say, flexibility and still gain satisfaction from the results. Usually.

[kybo]

Simpo Two said:

Nope, a large aperture gives you less DOF!

If you're after light trails then I'd say the most important parameter is shutter speed - for that will determine the length of the trail. So with that fixed, you then have aperture and ISO to play with to get the right exposure/exposure you want. Simples

Yep, understand aperture vs DOF but can never write it down correctly.

Simples he says, lol

Head torch = Check!!

LongQ, thanks for the detailed post - stealing exif data is something I'll definitely be doing.

Camera allows for RAW+JPG so will set that. Long Exposure noise reduction is off by default isn't it? Must check.

Will wait until I see others using flash before I give it a go - wouldn't want to upset anyone.

Thank god it's a 24hr race - I think I'll need to time! Pity only half of it's in darknes tho!!

So much to consider I'm glad I've got a fair bit of time to experiment/read/learn.

Cheers,
Scott

[AndyT350]

Crafty_ said:

OT but thats flipping brilliant.

When its that dark do you end up using manual focus - surely auto focus is going to fail at some point ?
I'm thinking you could focus to infinity and use a bit of trial and error to get it sharp ?

Cheers! - If i remember correctly (I'd obviously had a few beers by this point!) I used the track lit up by headlights to lock the auto-focus onto then whacked it in manual.

[tim-b]

If you stick to areas with some light (in this case the SF straight with light from the pit buildings) you'll do a lot better than having no light...


IMG_9359 by motion_captured, on Flickr

...but just the headlights, brake discs and slither of silhouette can give some drama to the shot when combined with an interesting lit backdrop (in fact you need something light to reflect in the body for the silhouette);


IMG_9395 by motion_captured, on Flickr

...or failing that, if you have no light from the scene, use another car's headlights!


IMG_9652 by motion_captured, on Flickr

Plus, as mentioned, you can get more effects with a flash, tripod etc. Torch is a must, you can shine it on the track to give you a spot to manual focus on (just not into the face of a driver of course!), otherwise all you'll have to focus on is the blinding headlights

[LongQ]

kybo said:

Yep, understand aperture vs DOF but can never write it down correctly.

Simples he says, lol

Head torch = Check!!

LongQ, thanks for the detailed post - stealing exif data is something I'll definitely be doing.

Camera allows for RAW+JPG so will set that. Long Exposure noise reduction is off by default isn't it? Must check.

Will wait until I see others using flash before I give it a go - wouldn't want to upset anyone.

Thank god it's a 24hr race - I think I'll need to time! Pity only half of it's in darknes tho!!

So much to consider I'm glad I've got a fair bit of time to experiment/read/learn.

Cheers,
Scott

Less than half is in darkness.

If you want to capture the full 'dusk' (and dawn) thing the rules change a bit from my suggestions PLUS the light changes quickly so you need to monitor the settings minute by minute.

Straight dusk/dawn shots suggest trying bracketing although a moving car as target is not ideal! However you can bracket three consecutive shots of more or less the same scene but targeting a different car each time and that should produce a result from at least one of them or something that can be 'merged' to provide the sky/ground light mix you prefer.

If you get an oportunity to consider Dusk/Dawn with flash content ... hmm. I think you would be far enough away that something like full power would still be required to see much direct effect (as oposed to 'lifting' a few highlights. But all I can suggest is to experment according to the prevailing conditions and and set the flash power output to something that appears to have an effect but is not too obvious. PP can deal with the rest. Usually.

If you have a smart phone I would recommend an investment in The Photographer's Ephemera App to help plan your visit - where to be and when for the light you want (assuming no adverse weather impacts.)