Anyone know this 944 S2 at Gmund?
Discussion
http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/3705266.htm
I've been looking for a 944 as a daily runabout for a while now and this one looks in fantastic condition. Has anyone seen the car or know anything about its history etc.?
Any info gratefully received.
Ian
I've been looking for a 944 as a daily runabout for a while now and this one looks in fantastic condition. Has anyone seen the car or know anything about its history etc.?
Any info gratefully received.
Ian
Ian_UK1 said:
http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/3705266.htm
I've been looking for a 944 as a daily runabout for a while now and this one looks in fantastic condition. Has anyone seen the car or know anything about its history etc.?
Any info gratefully received.
Ian
It might be very good, it certainly looks terrific and I love the colour. I hope it is as good as it looks, but on these cars it is common for them to look much better than they are under the skin. I am not suggesting that there is anything wrong with this car at all but any 944 priced at the top of the market needs to come with the answers to a lot of searching questions. I've been looking for a 944 as a daily runabout for a while now and this one looks in fantastic condition. Has anyone seen the car or know anything about its history etc.?
Any info gratefully received.
Ian
Things that spring to mind on this car:
1. It's on the wrong wheels. Should be on 16" Design 90, 205/55 16 front on 7J rims, 225/50 16 rear on 8J rims. 944s are much nicer on 16" wheels than 17", and if it is a really really nice original rot-free well-maintained un-mucked-about-with car it deserves to be on the correct wheels. If on 17" it needs 968 castor blocks in the front suspension.
2. The info supplied on the service history in the advert tells you nothing about what's actually been done and when, apart from the clutch replacement. Obviously if you are interested you can call them up and discuss this in more detail. You probably know this if you have done your homework but the calendar age of the cam and balance shaft belts is very important on these, as is the condition of the chain that drives one cam off the other, and all the the sprockets and tensioners. Doing the whole lot of this if it is all time-expired (belts) or just worn out (chain / sprockets / tensioners) is a big, big bill. Another potential biggie is plate lift in the brake calipers. Finally, these cars can rust very cheerfully from the inside-out, so the condition of the sills in particular is all-important.
All these cars are well past the age when a full book of OPC service stamps, with just the factory schedule service items done, could mean that they had been properly maintained. So knowing exactly what work has been done to refurbish the car, over the last three to four years, is quite important unless you want to pick up those bills yourself.
I think there is quite a good argument for buying a solid, rot-free car with a good interior and good paint and getting all the mechanical and suspension refurb done yourself. That way you know exactly what's been done, and can be sure of it. However, if that's the route you want to go down, you don't want to be paying nearly £7K in the first place for an S2. At that price, an S2 should not only be spot on structurally and cosmetically, inside and out, but also have fully refreshed mechanicals, brakes and suspension.
Hope this helps. I would also ask over on the PCGB 944 forum, which is very active, as someone over there may well know that individual car.
Lowtimer said:
Things that spring to mind on this car:
1. It's on the wrong wheels. Should be on 16" Design 90, 205/55 16 front on 7J rims, 225/50 16 rear on 8J rims. 944s are much nicer on 16" wheels than 17", and if it is a really really nice original rot-free well-maintained un-mucked-about-with car it deserves to be on the correct wheels. If on 17" it needs 968 castor blocks in the front suspension.
.
Utter nonsense1. It's on the wrong wheels. Should be on 16" Design 90, 205/55 16 front on 7J rims, 225/50 16 rear on 8J rims. 944s are much nicer on 16" wheels than 17", and if it is a really really nice original rot-free well-maintained un-mucked-about-with car it deserves to be on the correct wheels. If on 17" it needs 968 castor blocks in the front suspension.
.
They look far better on Cup 1's or 2's
What wheels they run also has little or nothing eto do with how well they have been maintained
Lowtimer said:
1. It's on the wrong wheels. Should be on 16" Design 90, 205/55 16 front on 7J rims, 225/50 16 rear on 8J rims. 944s are much nicer on 16" wheels than 17", and if it is a really really nice original rot-free well-maintained un-mucked-about-with car it deserves to be on the correct wheels. If on 17" it needs 968 castor blocks in the front suspension.
I'd agree about the 968 castor blocks being beneficial with larger wheels, but not that those wheels are wrong - in my experience 944s can be great on everything from 15" to 17" wheels (I've also been a passenger in one that had 18"s and that didn't feel to extreme). For me, I'd rather have less side wall flex of the lower profile tyre on a 17" wheel, but then I favour responsiveness and agility over a wafting ride. However if your planned use is more GT than sports car you may favour the 16" (but neither is extreme in the slightest).
freedman said:
Utter nonsense
They look far better on Cup 1's or 2's
What wheels they run also has little or nothing eto do with how well they have been maintained
I didn't say that the wheels had anything to do with the state of the maintenance, but it is a fact that a) the wheels are not 944 wheels, and b) that the car needs 968 castor blocks to work properly with 17" wheels.They look far better on Cup 1's or 2's
What wheels they run also has little or nothing eto do with how well they have been maintained
Don't know the car, but I'd agree with Lowtimer's comments. To me the wheels are just wrong, but that's a personal thing. There's not a 944 out there that won't run fine on those wheels if it's ben properly set up, but they look best on the standard period wheels IMO.
You need to see pictures of the inside of the sills, and close-ups of the front wing bottoms, before travelling to view. They all look nice in photos from a distance. Mechanical things like brake calipers, fuel and brake lines, belts (inc. water pump, cam chain etc.) can add the price of a cheap S2 to the first service. Bodywork can cost at leat twice the price of an S2 if serious metalwork and a respray are needed.
My instinct would be to have a good look at it; the exterior/interior colour is great, the dealer is well respected and the price is arguably not that high if you're buying from a trader who's got a reputation to maintain. The problem is always going to be that the cars are undervalued compared to the inferior 911s of the same age at the same price, so you are getting a lot of car for not much money. Keeping it going, and restoring the usual rust areas, might cost far more than the purchase price of an average car. If this car is as good as it looks you might well save a few £000s over a longer period of ownership.
You need to see pictures of the inside of the sills, and close-ups of the front wing bottoms, before travelling to view. They all look nice in photos from a distance. Mechanical things like brake calipers, fuel and brake lines, belts (inc. water pump, cam chain etc.) can add the price of a cheap S2 to the first service. Bodywork can cost at leat twice the price of an S2 if serious metalwork and a respray are needed.
My instinct would be to have a good look at it; the exterior/interior colour is great, the dealer is well respected and the price is arguably not that high if you're buying from a trader who's got a reputation to maintain. The problem is always going to be that the cars are undervalued compared to the inferior 911s of the same age at the same price, so you are getting a lot of car for not much money. Keeping it going, and restoring the usual rust areas, might cost far more than the purchase price of an average car. If this car is as good as it looks you might well save a few £000s over a longer period of ownership.
I don't know the car, but for the price it should be basicly perfect,but not necessarily original.
Those wheels often don't look right, but in that colour combo its ok for me, but it is a Porsche recommendation that 968 blocks are used for 17" wheels as they will take the more sudden inputs the bigger wheels create.
The only other non-standard things I can see are the radio and steering wheel.
Looks a nice car but as the others have said its amazing what can look good in photos!
Gmund do have a good reputation.
Those wheels often don't look right, but in that colour combo its ok for me, but it is a Porsche recommendation that 968 blocks are used for 17" wheels as they will take the more sudden inputs the bigger wheels create.
The only other non-standard things I can see are the radio and steering wheel.
Looks a nice car but as the others have said its amazing what can look good in photos!
Gmund do have a good reputation.
Lowtimer said:
freedman said:
Utter nonsense
They look far better on Cup 1's or 2's
What wheels they run also has little or nothing eto do with how well they have been maintained
I didn't say that the wheels had anything to do with the state of the maintenance, but it is a fact that a) the wheels are not 944 wheels, and b) that the car needs 968 castor blocks to work properly with 17" wheels.They look far better on Cup 1's or 2's
What wheels they run also has little or nothing eto do with how well they have been maintained
.Many thanks to everyone who has responded - a lot of food for thought and much useful information. I definitely agree that at the price Gmund are asking, all the major, known 'weaknesses' should have been addressed in a timely fashion, so I'll be asking as many pertinent questions as I can (or as far as my limited knowledge of the 944 goes). I'll also be looking very carefully for corrosion in all the usual places (and am still reading-up on this).
I hope you don't mind, but I have a few brief questions (to fill-in some things I'm unsure of) that hopefully someone much more knowledgeable than me can answer:
1) I've read that the cam and balance belts/tensioners/idlers should be changed every 40000 miles or 4 years. Is this still considered to be a reasonable interval?
2) My understanding of the cam chain/tensioner is that the plastic pads harden and break-up whilst the chains can stretch leading to (sometimes extreme) wear on the camshaft sprockets. How often should the various bits be replaced? Presumably the pads more often than the chain?
3) Plate lift on the brake calipers. As far as I understand this is something I can address myself? Am I right in understanding that it fundamentally involves removeal of the steel plates and addressing the underlying corrosion on the aluminium caliper body?
4) Where are the main weaknesses in the brake/fuel lines to be found?
Regards the caster plates, this was new to me - thanks for the heads-up. I would probably keep the 17" wheels I think, as I'd like the sharper turn-in. Irrespective of which 944 I eventually buy, it will be off to CG for a full alignment so I can get the caster plates done (together with Porsche's recommended geo changes for 17" wheels) at the same time.
Nurburgsingh - you said the wheels on this car might be copies - is this due to the numbers either side of the tyre valve apparently being missing? I remember reading that copies often lack the width/offset numbers in the casting.
Apologies for so many questions and thanks in advance to anyone kind enough to reply.
Ian
I hope you don't mind, but I have a few brief questions (to fill-in some things I'm unsure of) that hopefully someone much more knowledgeable than me can answer:
1) I've read that the cam and balance belts/tensioners/idlers should be changed every 40000 miles or 4 years. Is this still considered to be a reasonable interval?
2) My understanding of the cam chain/tensioner is that the plastic pads harden and break-up whilst the chains can stretch leading to (sometimes extreme) wear on the camshaft sprockets. How often should the various bits be replaced? Presumably the pads more often than the chain?
3) Plate lift on the brake calipers. As far as I understand this is something I can address myself? Am I right in understanding that it fundamentally involves removeal of the steel plates and addressing the underlying corrosion on the aluminium caliper body?
4) Where are the main weaknesses in the brake/fuel lines to be found?
Regards the caster plates, this was new to me - thanks for the heads-up. I would probably keep the 17" wheels I think, as I'd like the sharper turn-in. Irrespective of which 944 I eventually buy, it will be off to CG for a full alignment so I can get the caster plates done (together with Porsche's recommended geo changes for 17" wheels) at the same time.
Nurburgsingh - you said the wheels on this car might be copies - is this due to the numbers either side of the tyre valve apparently being missing? I remember reading that copies often lack the width/offset numbers in the casting.
Apologies for so many questions and thanks in advance to anyone kind enough to reply.
Ian
Ian_UK1 said:
I hope you don't mind, but I have a few brief questions (to fill-in some things I'm unsure of) that hopefully someone much more knowledgeable than me can answer:
1) I've read that the cam and balance belts/tensioners/idlers should be changed every 40000 miles or 4 years. Is this still considered to be a reasonable interval?
2) My understanding of the cam chain/tensioner is that the plastic pads harden and break-up whilst the chains can stretch leading to (sometimes extreme) wear on the camshaft sprockets. How often should the various bits be replaced? Presumably the pads more often than the chain?
3) Plate lift on the brake calipers. As far as I understand this is something I can address myself? Am I right in understanding that it fundamentally involves removeal of the steel plates and addressing the underlying corrosion on the aluminium caliper body?
4) Where are the main weaknesses in the brake/fuel lines to be found?
Ian
1 - 48K miles or four years, whichever is sooner. Also inspect every two years, oil leaks aren't uncommon and won't do the belt any good. Some people change every three years to be safe, if you DIY the Porsche Club has two tensioning tools free to borrow.1) I've read that the cam and balance belts/tensioners/idlers should be changed every 40000 miles or 4 years. Is this still considered to be a reasonable interval?
2) My understanding of the cam chain/tensioner is that the plastic pads harden and break-up whilst the chains can stretch leading to (sometimes extreme) wear on the camshaft sprockets. How often should the various bits be replaced? Presumably the pads more often than the chain?
3) Plate lift on the brake calipers. As far as I understand this is something I can address myself? Am I right in understanding that it fundamentally involves removeal of the steel plates and addressing the underlying corrosion on the aluminium caliper body?
4) Where are the main weaknesses in the brake/fuel lines to be found?
Ian
2 - there's no official time for changing the timing chain; as it's not in the schedule it's often not done. Basically, if it's not evident it's been replaced then do it! Same with the water pump, tensioners etc. I had my cams checked before I bought the car, it's unusual for the cams to need replacing but £££s.
3 - I wouldn't attempt the caliper refurb myself, and it cost me nearly £2K including 4 calipers, all new discs and pads, brake lines and handbrake shoes. They were the worst the indie had refurbed, though. If you're a helf-competant spannerer it's not complicated, plenty of on-line guides.
4 - Brake lines aren't silly money. The fuel line rusts over the rear axle, and the original parts require dropping the rear beam. No shortage of cheaper solutions so it's not the end of the world. I had my Lux patched with flexi, no isuues at all, and the S2 has RPM's stainless kit which isn't cheap at around £600 fitted I think, but a good long-term solution.
Nurburgsingh said:
The only deviation that would be acceptable in my mind is if it were on silver rose cup wheels....
What? The fastest deteriorating wheels in the world. I had these on my 944T and I have to say that I have never ever seen wheels as badly pitted and corroded as these - no scuffs or scratches, just pure and simple corrosion.I agree that those wheels, which I think always suit a 944, seem to be replicas but a set of 7" and 9" D90s would look good too.
The cars drive better on 16's, but can look good on 17's. They are more nimble on the 16's, and a 7/9 stagger is too much IMO - will just enhance understeer. On the track I like a square setup best.
I like that colour combo, particularly as most of the late cars have a blue interior which isn't nice.
If there are no receipts, the cam chain, tensioner etc.. is quite an easy thing to get checked during a PPI. Any caliper plate lift will also be picked up. Sill corrosion is much harder to see - they rust from the inside out. If you can, pop out the black vent in the door shut and look down. Even better if you can get a camera in there to look along the length of the sills.
The discs look a bit ridged - might need some attention (or replacement at that sticker price!)
So - a potentially very nice car, needs some checking over, with the pricing adjusted for anything nasty that shows up.
I like that colour combo, particularly as most of the late cars have a blue interior which isn't nice.
If there are no receipts, the cam chain, tensioner etc.. is quite an easy thing to get checked during a PPI. Any caliper plate lift will also be picked up. Sill corrosion is much harder to see - they rust from the inside out. If you can, pop out the black vent in the door shut and look down. Even better if you can get a camera in there to look along the length of the sills.
The discs look a bit ridged - might need some attention (or replacement at that sticker price!)
So - a potentially very nice car, needs some checking over, with the pricing adjusted for anything nasty that shows up.
Hi
Not an attack on the Dealer who is a known Porscheofile however last year they did have a Speed Yellow 968 CS for sale for a while described as Immaculate - I saw that same car elsewhere (after seeing the advert) and it was NOT immaculate - needed quite a bit of Body/Paint attention around the rear wheel/sill area.
Must say I was a little suprised at this but there you go!
Pictures are one thing but you have to see the car in the metal to decide for yourself.
MF
Not an attack on the Dealer who is a known Porscheofile however last year they did have a Speed Yellow 968 CS for sale for a while described as Immaculate - I saw that same car elsewhere (after seeing the advert) and it was NOT immaculate - needed quite a bit of Body/Paint attention around the rear wheel/sill area.
Must say I was a little suprised at this but there you go!
Pictures are one thing but you have to see the car in the metal to decide for yourself.
MF
Gassing Station | Porsche General | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff