Compassionate leave...

[LandingSpot]

Hi all,

My grandfather has been diagnosed with Small Cell Lung Cancer this week, starting Chemo tomorrow and lives in Cardiff. My parents live in Cambs, father self emplyed and mother works for the local NHS Trust as the Children's Ward Ward Sister.

This morning I hear that she will be handing her notice in with the hospital as they are unwilling to grant her compassionate leave to support him through the therapy.

I have no clue about what is and isn't accepted in terms of leave for terminally ill relatives, does anyone know? She loves her work and is incredibly comitted, has risen untold amounts of money for new facilities, machines etc for the ward and it seems like this is a huuuge foxtrot oscar from them.

I would hate for her to essentially quit her job unless there was absolutely no other way, so I guess what I'm asking is "Are they allowed to do this?" and "Is regular leave to be used in circumstances like this?" I'm prepared for a simple "Yes, tough st." btw!

Thanks in advance everyone (anyone!)

[GeraldSmith]

Generally speaking there are no rights in this area. You have the right to time off unpaid to deal with emergencies when the person is a dependent, which generally doesn't cover parents, and it's generally only a day or two.

Beyond that it's employer discretion unless there is anything in the employment contract that covers it.

[Andy OH]

My mother recently had a double heart bypass and I was given compassionate leave. My boss (Head of Internal Audit for a City of London Investment house) said to me, take as long and as much time as you need. I took in total four days compassionate leave over a period of two weeks together with three days working from home.

It all depends on how flexible your employer or boss is. Thankfully mine is very understanding.

[Countdown]

LandingSpot said:

Hi all,
I would hate for her to essentially quit her job unless there was absolutely no other way, so I guess what I'm asking is "Are they allowed to do this?"

Yes. The Trust will have a policy on Compassionate Leave. (IME) it can be used at the discretion of the HR Dept/Line Manager for various reasons, however it is normally only for a very short term (1 week max). It sounds as if your mum would need significantly more leave than that.

LandingSpot said:

"Is regular leave to be used in circumstances like this?" I'm prepared for a simple "Yes, tough st." btw!

Normal annual leave is the usual route, followed by unpaid leave. However it depends upon whether they can get suitable cover for your mum.

Unfortunately with aged parents living longer and longer this kind of ocurrence is happening on a more frequent basis. It would be extremely difficult for any employer to give an employee paid leave for a significant length of time.

[pingu393]

I used to be a manager in the MOD (Civil Service rules) and I feel for your situation. I left in 2008, so these are just things to look at, don't rely on the numbers, just investigate the possibilities.

There were rules and there were guidlines. The guidelines were just that - "guidelines", and could be "managed" by good managers.

Firstly, you have to understand that your Gran is the employee and not your Grandad.

I would suggest not handing in notice yet, but investigate the following...

a) Take all flexi-leave available.
b) Take all available annual leave. There are some Public Holidays coming up as well.
c) Investigate any Special Paid Leave that may be available.
d) Investigate any Special Unpaid Leave.

In the MOD (I assume similar to NHS)

a) Up to 1.5 days negative
b) Fairly obvious, but care with P/H as A/L (in the MOD) on Maundy Thur had to be a whole day, but Flexi was 0.5. IIRC.
c) There may be upto 5 days available here. Not sure, though.
d) There is an unbelievable amount of Special Unpaid Leave available. For instance upto 365 days to go around the world to "learn" about other countries. So, I would expect there to be something that could be found for compassionate leave.


Is your Gran in a Union? If so, get them on the case.

Your Gran's thoughts will be all over the place, so get one of her colleagues to investigate and, if necessary, negotiate on her behalf.


I hope this has given you food for thought, and best wishes.

Edited by pingu393 on Tuesday 6th March 12:39

[Andy OH]

pingu393 said:

I used to be a manager in the MOD (Civil Service rules) and I feel for your situation. I left in 2008, so these are just things to look at, don't rely on the numbers, just investigate the possibilities.

There were rules and there were guidlines. The guidelines were just that - "guidelines", and could be "managed" by good managers.

Firstly, you have to understand that your Gran is the employee and not your Grandad.

I would suggest not handing in notice yet, but investigate the following...

a) Take all flexi-leave available.
b) Take all available annual leave. There are some Public Holidays coming up as well.
c) Investigate any Special Paid Leave that may be available.
d) Investigate any Special Unpaid Leave.

In the MOD (I assume similar to NHS)

a) Up to 1.5 days negative
b) Fairly obvious, but care with P/H as A/L (in the MOD) on Maundy Thur had to be a whole day, but Flexi was 0.5. IIRC.
c) There may be upto 5 days available here. Not sure, though.
d) There is an unbelievable amount of Special Unpaid Leave available. For instance upto 365 days to go around the world to "learn" about other countries. So, I would expect there to be something that could be found for compassionate leave.


Is your Gran in a Union? If so, get them on the case.

Your Gran's thoughts will be all over the place, so get one of her colleagues to investigate and, if necessary, negotiate on her behalf.


I hope this has given you food for thought, and best wishes.

Edited by pingu393 on Tuesday 6th March 12:39

It's the OP's mother, presumably in Cambridgeshire wanting to be with her sick father in Cardiff.

[pingu393]

Andy OH said:

It's the OP's mother, presumably in Cambridgeshire wanting to be with her sick father in Cardiff.

The scenario is the same, just the names have changed. It's a "compassionate leave" case. It is covered by guidelines not rules. I've heard of people being given time off to look after pets .

[pingu393]

Andy OH said:

It's the OP's mother, presumably in Cambridgeshire wanting to be with her sick father in Cardiff.

Re Cambridgeshire / Cardiff.

I was involved in arranging for someone to be offered a job near their father's home in similar circumstances. There will, no doubt, be a thread about a waste of government money if I told you how it was done - but no rules were broken. Guidelines were used for guidance only .

[deeen]

Has she tried asking for unpaid leave?

[LandingSpot]

GeraldSmith said:

Generally speaking there are no rights in this area. You have the right to time off unpaid to deal with emergencies when the person is a dependent, which generally doesn't cover parents, and it's generally only a day or two.

Beyond that it's employer discretion unless there is anything in the employment contract that covers it.

Thanks for your quick reply

Andy OH said:

My mother recently had a double heart bypass and I was given compassionate leave. My boss (Head of Internal Audit for a City of London Investment house) said to me, take as long and as much time as you need. I took in total four days compassionate leave over a period of two weeks together with three days working from home.

It all depends on how flexible your employer or boss is. Thankfully mine is very understanding.

I hope everything is going well for your mother Amazing how times like these bring the proper things in to focus

Countdown said:

LandingSpot said:

Hi all,
I would hate for her to essentially quit her job unless there was absolutely no other way, so I guess what I'm asking is "Are they allowed to do this?"

Yes. The Trust will have a policy on Compassionate Leave. (IME) it can be used at the discretion of the HR Dept/Line Manager for various reasons, however it is normally only for a very short term (1 week max). It sounds as if your mum would need significantly more leave than that.

She is not asking for periods of weeks away, only time to visit and stay overnight one night during the therapy session. I agree that weeks at a time may see the Trust frowning upon it when taken as compassionate/carer's leave.

Countdown said:

LandingSpot said:

"Is regular leave to be used in circumstances like this?" I'm prepared for a simple "Yes, tough st." btw!

Normal annual leave is the usual route, followed by unpaid leave. However it depends upon whether they can get suitable cover for your mum.

Unfortunately with aged parents living longer and longer this kind of ocurrence is happening on a more frequent basis. It would be extremely difficult for any employer to give an employee paid leave for a significant length of time.

Of course. I can understand the employers position with regard to losing a vital member of staff for a period of time, however short. I am a bit shocked that despite the regular 6 day week of 12 hour shifts (following other staff shortages, a busy ward with many patients etc), the devotion and support given to the Ward, the changes made under her tenure as well as a long standing personal relationship with her line manager, a flat denial of her request as "carer's leave is intended to be used in case of emergencies and not planned events" I know that the planned event is taken to be the days off in the coming weeks but this is caused but the unplanned event of fking cancer.

[LandingSpot]

Andy OH said:

pingu393 said:

I used to be a manager in the MOD (Civil Service rules) and I feel for your situation. I left in 2008, so these are just things to look at, don't rely on the numbers, just investigate the possibilities.

There were rules and there were guidlines. The guidelines were just that - "guidelines", and could be "managed" by good managers.

Firstly, you have to understand that your Gran is the employee and not your Grandad.

I would suggest not handing in notice yet, but investigate the following...

a) Take all flexi-leave available.
b) Take all available annual leave. There are some Public Holidays coming up as well.
c) Investigate any Special Paid Leave that may be available.
d) Investigate any Special Unpaid Leave.

In the MOD (I assume similar to NHS)

a) Up to 1.5 days negative
b) Fairly obvious, but care with P/H as A/L (in the MOD) on Maundy Thur had to be a whole day, but Flexi was 0.5. IIRC.
c) There may be upto 5 days available here. Not sure, though.
d) There is an unbelievable amount of Special Unpaid Leave available. For instance upto 365 days to go around the world to "learn" about other countries. So, I would expect there to be something that could be found for compassionate leave.


Is your Gran in a Union? If so, get them on the case.

Your Gran's thoughts will be all over the place, so get one of her colleagues to investigate and, if necessary, negotiate on her behalf.


I hope this has given you food for thought, and best wishes.

Edited by pingu393 on Tuesday 6th March 12:39

It's the OP's mother, presumably in Cambridgeshire wanting to be with her sick father in Cardiff.

Correct Andy

Thanks for your attention and thoughts, Pingu I'll ask her/a colleague to investigate

anonymous said:

[redacted]

I know of the culture of entitlement that you refer to and agree that its proliferation and abuse should be carefully monitored and where appropriate, curtailed. Due to the short staff situations of recent times, there has been many occasion when she has been called in due to high patient numbers, ward staff calling in sick etc and I am astonished to see how short management's memory is, considering said management are not by any means new to the Ward.

I'm sorry to hear of your Dad. Condolences to you.

deeen said:

Has she tried asking for unpaid leave?

I don't think so as far as I know. I think she was quite offended that her request was denied off the bat given her long service and history. A really stty thing to do IMO and does nothing for morale!

[elanfan]

A few randomish thoughts:

1. Is a career break possible to maintain her years of service in the event of redundancy etc

2. Could her Dad be temporarily relocated nearer to Cambs (although Velindre is a Centre of Excellence)

3. Would her Doctor sign her off on what might become long term sick (Depression perhaps?) Considering what she has 'given' to her employers over the years the stty treatment back actually desrves this IMHO

[mondeoman]

From a totally legal point of view, there is a very limited use for compassionate leave, and it is normally only for the death of an immediate family member.

However, as a manager, I would normally take a fairly balanced view on what is being asked for, and in your mums case I would probably allow a couple of days now to get things sorted (maybe as unpaid leave) and then the odd day as things progress.

If your mum wants to be there full-time, then she is most likely out of luck, unless she can wangle something from the list that pingu put up earlier.

I lost a week/10 days off work back in November when my BIL was diagnosed with terminal bone cancer, so I feel for your mum - its a stty thing to have happen.

Hope it all works out for her.

[James_N]

Pretty much what Pingu said above. I have just checked our trust policy for special leave, and it states that 5 days special / compassionate leave should be adequate to sort most situations. This can be extended up to 10 days but thats at the discression of your manager.

In our department, we actually have one member of staff off for family reasons at the moment. To start with, she had the 10 days special leave, then she took all of her annual leave, but this still isn't enough, so she has had to have a career break.

I guess having the doctor sign you off would be a last resort, but surely thats a better option than handing your notice in and being left with the added stress of no job to return too?

Best of luck with everything.

[0a]

My mother manages many people at a reasonably high level in local government and operates under what I suspect is a similar policy.

Please ensure you mother goes to see her boss and explains exactly how she feels and her situation. You may be surprised as to the accommodation that is possible.

As with any private company they do not want to lose an employee in these circumstances.

My mother comes home and agonises with my father and I about how she uses every method to support staff members who have been through this kind of scenario, she'll move the earth for her staff in this situation (though not others).

Strangely private companies I have worked for have been the same.

It's all the more important as she needs a job to go back to.

After all, as a manager you are employed to get the best from your staff. Sometimes this means putting them on half time (and pay) for a few months and then on compassionate leave.

Edited by 0a on Thursday 8th March 01:54

[0a]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

Issac - this is very st indeed, what a poor PS employer.

I work in the PS and i'm surprised - why take someone back so early, they are hardly likely to be a perfect employee.

[pingu393]

Just a comment re sick.

I would strongly recommend NOT going down the sickness path, especially as your mum was prepared to resign (no pay).

Sick Leave does have the advantage of being paid, but this will lead to a computer-generated inefficiency investigation which management must respond to. In my experience, immediate managers have compassion, HR Depts don't. Even an Informal Warning with 3 months notice to improve will be a stressful thing for your mum to get.

I had a member of staff who was on sick leave for stress and HR continually bombarded her with questions and warnings until her only option was to "volunteer" for redundancy.

[mollymoo]

As others have mentioned, see what other kinds of leave are available. Read the policy, speak to HR etc. Don't assume the line manager knows what they're doing in relation to HR stuff, for most managers that side of things is secondary to making sure the work gets done and they are far from being HR experts. There may also be the option to reduce her hours.

My public sector employer would only give you a week or so of compassionate leave, but there are various other typres of special leave, including up to five years (unpaid) carer's leave.