*ADVICE PLEASE* 2006 Cayman S worry!
Discussion
Hi guys, a plea for help/advice from fellow owners. I've been reading hours on the topic of IMS failure, bore scoring etc as I have some concerns about my recent car purchase. I'll try and keep all the facts brief, but I really need some input from you guys as to what to do.
I bought a 2006 Cayman S 40,000 miles, from an independent dealer a few weeks ago (he has given a 3 months warranty on engine, gearbox & electrics. I noticed that the oil was low, so I topped this up with Mobil 1 and it seems to have gone down a quarter within 180 miles or so (now I may have JUST been in the top quarter so it's tough to say that it officially used a quarter within that time until it drops down another quarter in similar milage). The car does seem to smoke (whiteish) alot on start up, which I read is not a good sign, and my MPG is around 16-17 combined and exhaust ends are quite black. It has a Full Porsche Service history and is due a minor service in a few months - I took it to an OPC yesterday to have a warranty applied, but they informed me that it had a non-porsche battery but the main thing was that I couldn't as it has had a chip / remap (which I didn't know about), and even if they reset this, it would still show on the computer and hence Porsche wouldn't warranty it.
Can a chip/remap cause this extra consumption in oil, low mpg & possible incomplete combustion, or is it the fear of bore scoring etc. Have I caught things in time to get this sorted / refreshed without having to pay too much. The mechanic during the 111 check said the car felt a bit quicker (due to chip) but didn't mention anything felt / seemed wrong. Is it worth me paying (cost?) for a bore inspection and could I ask the independent dealer to pay for a repair under the 3 month warranty if indeed it was scored. If it was a more simple explanation, i.e. vapour seal, would the 111 have spotted this anyway?
I love the options on the car, black 19" sport design wheels, sports seats, red seat belts, PASM, nav so I know if I got rid it would be ages before I found another one like it, which is putting me in this quandary as to whether to try and 'fix things' now for a 'reasonable cost' or how to know if I have a problem first off for sure.
I will only drive it 3-4k miles per year MAX and am only looking to keep the car up to 2 years, so is it a gamble to wait 7k miles before P/Xing? Am I worrying for nothing as long as I keep oil topped up? Any help/advice whatsoever will be most appreciated. I'm based in the South.
Thanks guys.
I bought a 2006 Cayman S 40,000 miles, from an independent dealer a few weeks ago (he has given a 3 months warranty on engine, gearbox & electrics. I noticed that the oil was low, so I topped this up with Mobil 1 and it seems to have gone down a quarter within 180 miles or so (now I may have JUST been in the top quarter so it's tough to say that it officially used a quarter within that time until it drops down another quarter in similar milage). The car does seem to smoke (whiteish) alot on start up, which I read is not a good sign, and my MPG is around 16-17 combined and exhaust ends are quite black. It has a Full Porsche Service history and is due a minor service in a few months - I took it to an OPC yesterday to have a warranty applied, but they informed me that it had a non-porsche battery but the main thing was that I couldn't as it has had a chip / remap (which I didn't know about), and even if they reset this, it would still show on the computer and hence Porsche wouldn't warranty it.
Can a chip/remap cause this extra consumption in oil, low mpg & possible incomplete combustion, or is it the fear of bore scoring etc. Have I caught things in time to get this sorted / refreshed without having to pay too much. The mechanic during the 111 check said the car felt a bit quicker (due to chip) but didn't mention anything felt / seemed wrong. Is it worth me paying (cost?) for a bore inspection and could I ask the independent dealer to pay for a repair under the 3 month warranty if indeed it was scored. If it was a more simple explanation, i.e. vapour seal, would the 111 have spotted this anyway?
I love the options on the car, black 19" sport design wheels, sports seats, red seat belts, PASM, nav so I know if I got rid it would be ages before I found another one like it, which is putting me in this quandary as to whether to try and 'fix things' now for a 'reasonable cost' or how to know if I have a problem first off for sure.
I will only drive it 3-4k miles per year MAX and am only looking to keep the car up to 2 years, so is it a gamble to wait 7k miles before P/Xing? Am I worrying for nothing as long as I keep oil topped up? Any help/advice whatsoever will be most appreciated. I'm based in the South.
Thanks guys.
arcamalpha said:
Did you know it was chipped when you bought it? If you prove that you bought it expecting it to be standard and in good working order, I'd return it to where you bought it from and tell them it doesn't match the description of sale.
+1It might be hard to let the car go but this would seem to be the most risk averse thing to do at this point.
I would get it back to the dealer pronto letting him know your concerns and how you can't get the warranty you wanted due to the remap, let him look into it further and decide if he wants to tell you to keep driving it or not, if he says no problem and then it goes pop you will have given him every opportunity in the first place. I have a cayman s and driving hard I can't get it below 20mpg so 16 17 just don't know how, mine also uses none/minimum oil.
Thanks for the input, no I had no idea it was chipped when I bought it - the main reason I chose it was due to its Full Porsche Service History, hence I thought all the parts would be Porsche and with no mods. It's true I may be over worrying, but the [possibly] high oil usage combined with the low MPG is what worried me and I wasn't sure whether it was the chip itself. The 111 check found the AC not to be working but couldn't see an issue as to why - so recommended having it regassed and checked.
I think I will speak to the OPC again tomorrow and ask (for my piece of mind) if I can book it in for a boroscope test. If it shows up that there is an issue I will speak with the independent dealer, as his 3 month warranty should cover this as it's 'an engine part failing' and if not at least I can stop panicking
Indeed it passed the 111, just couldn't be warrantied due to chip - but would the 111 check pick up this issue with bore scoring leading to engine problems?
I think I will speak to the OPC again tomorrow and ask (for my piece of mind) if I can book it in for a boroscope test. If it shows up that there is an issue I will speak with the independent dealer, as his 3 month warranty should cover this as it's 'an engine part failing' and if not at least I can stop panicking
Indeed it passed the 111, just couldn't be warrantied due to chip - but would the 111 check pick up this issue with bore scoring leading to engine problems?
ravz9 said:
Thanks for the input, no I had no idea it was chipped when I bought it - the main reason I chose it was due to its Full Porsche Service History, hence I thought all the parts would be Porsche and with no mods. It's true I may be over worrying, but the [possibly] high oil usage combined with the low MPG is what worried me and I wasn't sure whether it was the chip itself. The 111 check found the AC not to be working but couldn't see an issue as to why - so recommended having it regassed and checked.
I think I will speak to the OPC again tomorrow and ask (for my piece of mind) if I can book it in for a boroscope test. If it shows up that there is an issue I will speak with the independent dealer, as his 3 month warranty should cover this as it's 'an engine part failing' and if not at least I can stop panicking
Indeed it passed the 111, just couldn't be warrantied due to chip - but would the 111 check pick up this issue with bore scoring leading to engine problems?
Mate just check what your warranty covers(small print) and get it back to the supplying dealer, if he chooses not to do any checks then consider taking it further, it has to be fit for purpose. One thing to consider is that the dealer may not have known it had been remapped. It is also interesting as I asked the question on here the other day about remapping and can it be traced as a dealer offering remapping states in his advert that it can't be traced when it clearly can. I think I will speak to the OPC again tomorrow and ask (for my piece of mind) if I can book it in for a boroscope test. If it shows up that there is an issue I will speak with the independent dealer, as his 3 month warranty should cover this as it's 'an engine part failing' and if not at least I can stop panicking
Indeed it passed the 111, just couldn't be warrantied due to chip - but would the 111 check pick up this issue with bore scoring leading to engine problems?
What warranty have you got?
I'm no technical expert, but it doesn't sound right. White smoke is generally bad (not to be confused with steam that's more common in cold weather).
I wouldn't waste any money at an OPC, but would go straight back to the dealer you bought it from and explain the two key pieces of information: 1). can't warranty because it's non-standard and 2) the white smoke and high oil usage. Don't try to explain possible causes, just state the facts and then give the dealer a chance to rectify the issues and prove the car is in good working order. I'd suggest you ask the dealer to explain how they would go about proving this and consider whether that meets your requirements in advance of leaving the car with them etc. Be clear that you didn't realise it was modified, any other relevant conditions of sale and that if they can't give you the assurances you need, that you expect to return the vehicle for a full refund. I'm sure there's some good stuff in the Sale of Goods act.
Dependant on the answer you get and the supporting evidence, either obtain a Porsche warranty and enjoy your car or get a full refund and find another Cayman. A 3 month warranty isn't much to rely on because a Cayman with a broken engine after 4 months is worth very little.
Best of luck.
I wouldn't waste any money at an OPC, but would go straight back to the dealer you bought it from and explain the two key pieces of information: 1). can't warranty because it's non-standard and 2) the white smoke and high oil usage. Don't try to explain possible causes, just state the facts and then give the dealer a chance to rectify the issues and prove the car is in good working order. I'd suggest you ask the dealer to explain how they would go about proving this and consider whether that meets your requirements in advance of leaving the car with them etc. Be clear that you didn't realise it was modified, any other relevant conditions of sale and that if they can't give you the assurances you need, that you expect to return the vehicle for a full refund. I'm sure there's some good stuff in the Sale of Goods act.
Dependant on the answer you get and the supporting evidence, either obtain a Porsche warranty and enjoy your car or get a full refund and find another Cayman. A 3 month warranty isn't much to rely on because a Cayman with a broken engine after 4 months is worth very little.
Best of luck.
Edited by arcamalpha on Sunday 12th February 20:50
Edited by arcamalpha on Sunday 12th February 20:51
arcamalpha said:
I'm no technical expert, but it doesn't sound right. White smoke is generally bad (not to be confused with steam that's more common in cold weather).
I wouldn't waste any money at an OPC, but would go straight back to the dealer you bought it from and explain the two key pieces of information: 1). can't warranty because it's non-standard and 2) the white smoke and high oil usage.
Give the dealer a chance to rectify the issues and prove the car is in good working order. I'd suggest you ask the dealer to explain how they would go about proving this and consider whether that meets your requirements. Be clear that you didn't realise it was modified and that if they can't give you the assurances you need, that you expect to return the vehicle for a full refund. I'm sure there's some good stuff in the Sale of Goods act.
Dependant on the answer you get and the supporting evidence, either obtain a Porsche warranty and enjoy your car or get a full refund and find another Cayman. A 3 month warranty isn't much to rely on because a Cayman with a broken engine after 4 months is worth very little.
Best of luck.
He will never get a porsche warranty due to the remap.I wouldn't waste any money at an OPC, but would go straight back to the dealer you bought it from and explain the two key pieces of information: 1). can't warranty because it's non-standard and 2) the white smoke and high oil usage.
Give the dealer a chance to rectify the issues and prove the car is in good working order. I'd suggest you ask the dealer to explain how they would go about proving this and consider whether that meets your requirements. Be clear that you didn't realise it was modified and that if they can't give you the assurances you need, that you expect to return the vehicle for a full refund. I'm sure there's some good stuff in the Sale of Goods act.
Dependant on the answer you get and the supporting evidence, either obtain a Porsche warranty and enjoy your car or get a full refund and find another Cayman. A 3 month warranty isn't much to rely on because a Cayman with a broken engine after 4 months is worth very little.
Best of luck.
I think the two things are different - engine being fooked and being mapped.
Clearly if the engine is fooked then the dealer will have to sort it out.
But what if the engine's ok and just mapped? Did the dealer give representations that it's a standard car? Did the OP specify they wanted a completely standard car? Doesn't sound completely straightforward to me.
Bert
Clearly if the engine is fooked then the dealer will have to sort it out.
But what if the engine's ok and just mapped? Did the dealer give representations that it's a standard car? Did the OP specify they wanted a completely standard car? Doesn't sound completely straightforward to me.
Bert
Absolutely do not spend money on boroscope at this point.
This might have insurance ramifications also, at least if you want to go by the book. I'd be pretty annoyed to be honest and especially given the horrendous fuel economy I'd make every attempt to return it at this point and only accept anything less as an absolute last resort if you are out of the legal recourse timeframe.
This might have insurance ramifications also, at least if you want to go by the book. I'd be pretty annoyed to be honest and especially given the horrendous fuel economy I'd make every attempt to return it at this point and only accept anything less as an absolute last resort if you are out of the legal recourse timeframe.
Edited by FisiP1 on Sunday 12th February 21:42
Edited by FisiP1 on Sunday 12th February 21:42
Were your oil level checks on perfectly level ground? I find that the level measurement on the Cayman is very sensitive to the level of ground. When in my garage it reads on the max, but where I park at work it is very, very, slightly off-level, and reads one bar low.
I'm surprised nobody has suggested a problem with the air-oil separator with lots of white smoke that you describe. I don't know your technical ability, but if you take off the inlet hose to the throttle body and look inside, if it is wet with oil residue, then the AOS has likely failed.
Just a couple of things to investigate before going into panic mode.
I'm surprised nobody has suggested a problem with the air-oil separator with lots of white smoke that you describe. I don't know your technical ability, but if you take off the inlet hose to the throttle body and look inside, if it is wet with oil residue, then the AOS has likely failed.
Just a couple of things to investigate before going into panic mode.
Take it back and get a refund from the trader. I would recommend the Cayman S to anyone but I would also recommend a Porsche warranty on it and if you can't get one because the car isn't standard then the trader must take it back as he has mis-sold it to you. Cant comment directly on the fuel consumption but I get about 20 around town and 30 on a run in my Gen2 S PDK and yes the end of the exhaust tips are black but then the Gen2 engine is DFI
Take it back and get a refund from the trader. I would recommend the Cayman S to anyone but I would also recommend a Porsche warranty on it and if you can't get one because the car isn't standard then the trader must take it back as he has mis-sold it to you. Cant comment directly on the fuel consumption but I get about 20 around town and 30 on a run in my Gen2 S PDK and yes the end of the exhaust tips are black but then the Gen2 engine is DFI
At the risk of admitting I'm a tit, and in response to arcamalpha, I think the 'white smoke' is steam. It's not thick nor smelly and goes away after a few mins. Just seemed a lot, but it has been extremely cold. With regards to oil usage, I think it erroneously showed up to the max line when I filled it, as going by the handbook it would have taken 1.2 litres to get from MIN to MAX.
I have attached a photo of my oil gauge. A few weeks ago when I bought the car from the dealer, after driving it back 30 miles the oil light came on and the gauge showed the first pic (lower quart). I doubled checked how much of my 5L Mobile-One I have left just now and being exact it seems like 4.2 litre is left in it hence 0.8l used in the car. Using this calculation (and that 0.4l per quart and 1.2l from MIN to MAX) the gauge is in theory where it should be, and currently stands now after 200 miles of driving (second photo). The thing that threw me is that it did show up to MAX line when I put the oil in initially. I never checked it again until this afternoon at a different place (seemed flat) which showed second to last quart. Worried me and hence the post. I now always measure it in the same place (garage). But is this common when topping up from MIN, that even 0.8l showed up to the MAX line straight after? I should have checked it again later that day.
The MPG is still lower than it should be, which I think might be due to the remap. I'll def be calling the dealer to request the cost for resetting this to Porsche factory setting should be his cost (as with the the AC not working (regassing?) but given the above, I maybe being hasty about oil usage and panicking, as I need to see it permanently into the 2nd quarter to be sure it's using too much.
I have attached a photo of my oil gauge. A few weeks ago when I bought the car from the dealer, after driving it back 30 miles the oil light came on and the gauge showed the first pic (lower quart). I doubled checked how much of my 5L Mobile-One I have left just now and being exact it seems like 4.2 litre is left in it hence 0.8l used in the car. Using this calculation (and that 0.4l per quart and 1.2l from MIN to MAX) the gauge is in theory where it should be, and currently stands now after 200 miles of driving (second photo). The thing that threw me is that it did show up to MAX line when I put the oil in initially. I never checked it again until this afternoon at a different place (seemed flat) which showed second to last quart. Worried me and hence the post. I now always measure it in the same place (garage). But is this common when topping up from MIN, that even 0.8l showed up to the MAX line straight after? I should have checked it again later that day.
The MPG is still lower than it should be, which I think might be due to the remap. I'll def be calling the dealer to request the cost for resetting this to Porsche factory setting should be his cost (as with the the AC not working (regassing?) but given the above, I maybe being hasty about oil usage and panicking, as I need to see it permanently into the 2nd quarter to be sure it's using too much.
Edited by ravz9 on Wednesday 22 February 13:30
For reference.. I've got an 08 Cayman S, and I don't see any smoke on startup, I haven't needed to put any oil in it since I bought it around 9 months ago, and I do around 24 mpg and that's urban stop-start driving.
Something definitely not right with yours I'm afraid.
edit: It is possible with that fuel economy that the chip/fuel map is really rich for some reason. Wouldn't explain the white smoke though, though to put your mind at ease somewhat - white smoke can be normal, something to do with the engine position or something-or-other (can you tell I'm not a mechanic?)
Something definitely not right with yours I'm afraid.
edit: It is possible with that fuel economy that the chip/fuel map is really rich for some reason. Wouldn't explain the white smoke though, though to put your mind at ease somewhat - white smoke can be normal, something to do with the engine position or something-or-other (can you tell I'm not a mechanic?)
Edited by Durzel on Sunday 12th February 23:32
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