Discussion
I can't decide wheather to bother with a stereo in my next car. Trouble is I'm used to really decent proper home hi-fi and by comparison standard fit car systems are awful, even the best ones. Theres none of the finer detail and imaging that makes a vocalist seem to be right in front of you. At the other end of the scale it's impossible to recreate the lowest tones that contain all the atmosphere without a dedicated sub. I have an REL active sub at home, and when it's turned off, the scale and realism takes a massive drop. It's the difference between very good and truly lifelike. In my present car I don't ever bother turning it on as it is a standard unit that's shockingly bad.
Some people don't understand this obsession with audio perfection. The only reason you wouldn't understand is if you haven't heard the difference in hardware or you don't have a real passion for music. To explain to someone not bothered, it's like the difference between a black and white portable tv and a new widescreen Sony Wega 32''. Once your used to that level there's no going back.
The trouble is achieving the same realism in the car. I don't want a massive array of boxes all over the place. I wan't it to look totally standard but with the realism I wan't. I also am looking into achieving the lowest vehicle weight using carbon seats etc, so any weight added isn't ideal at all. It's always going to be a compromise between audio perfection and car performance dampened by the weight. I know the best components to achieve this but am still unsure whether to bother.
A lot of you guys are obviously into music from the forum's we've had. How many of you have done something about it and had an uprated system intalled?
(PLEASE DON'T CONFUSE THESE UNDERSTATED AUDIOPHILE SYSTEMS WITH CHEAP NOVA / BASSBOX COMBOS).
>>> Edited by Roadrunner on Thursday 23 May 14:21
Some people don't understand this obsession with audio perfection. The only reason you wouldn't understand is if you haven't heard the difference in hardware or you don't have a real passion for music. To explain to someone not bothered, it's like the difference between a black and white portable tv and a new widescreen Sony Wega 32''. Once your used to that level there's no going back.
The trouble is achieving the same realism in the car. I don't want a massive array of boxes all over the place. I wan't it to look totally standard but with the realism I wan't. I also am looking into achieving the lowest vehicle weight using carbon seats etc, so any weight added isn't ideal at all. It's always going to be a compromise between audio perfection and car performance dampened by the weight. I know the best components to achieve this but am still unsure whether to bother.
A lot of you guys are obviously into music from the forum's we've had. How many of you have done something about it and had an uprated system intalled?
(PLEASE DON'T CONFUSE THESE UNDERSTATED AUDIOPHILE SYSTEMS WITH CHEAP NOVA / BASSBOX COMBOS).
>>> Edited by Roadrunner on Thursday 23 May 14:21
I would question even trying to get near the quality of a top-end home system. In a car, the background noise (road noise, wind noise, engine noise, road rage noise) is at such a level that the change in quality between an 'adequate' system and a 'here's my bank account and credit card' system isn't actually audible.
IMHO
IMHO
It's true there's a diminishing scale of returns here. And yes there is a lot of background noise but it is possible to overcome a lot of it. Obviously it helps to start with a well made structually sound car that cuts out a fair amount of noise. Specialist companies can also instal sound deadining materials to further reduce noises. Finally even a small quality sub, without any of the above, will overcome 90% of road noise as it operates at those frequencies - over riding them. Obviously if you keep turning the sub up it'll be out of proportion to the rest of the music, and will piss people off, but that's not the idea in quality reproduction.
I have a two pronged answer to you roadrunner. The car never will be the perfect sound forum partly because of its shape and because as has already been mentioned road noise, vibration etc. I only listen to my stereo when I have a long boring run (such as a motorway haul) and then I play music I can sing along to and stuff the quality.
On the quality of systems. Whilst I agree there is a world of difference between a standard boom box and a seperates system. I also believe there is a "magic suit of clothes" phylosophy going on. I knew a complete nut on Hi-fi in which he spent an absolute fortune on stereo equipment (about 4x, or perhaps more he was reluctant to say, the price of my seperates system costing about £800) we put them in the same room played one then the other (same track, volume etc.) and no-one in the room (including the nut) could tell the difference in quality. This is the similar argument to the green pen round the edge of CDs, and blue tack to tackle vibration.
On the quality of systems. Whilst I agree there is a world of difference between a standard boom box and a seperates system. I also believe there is a "magic suit of clothes" phylosophy going on. I knew a complete nut on Hi-fi in which he spent an absolute fortune on stereo equipment (about 4x, or perhaps more he was reluctant to say, the price of my seperates system costing about £800) we put them in the same room played one then the other (same track, volume etc.) and no-one in the room (including the nut) could tell the difference in quality. This is the similar argument to the green pen round the edge of CDs, and blue tack to tackle vibration.
Ultimately you only get out what you put in. If a poor recording is used it becomes irrelavent what system it's played on. It is widely accepted that cd recording quality varies substantially from disc to disc, due to recording techniques and studio's. Top end equipment is usually checked on known good discs to highlight the differences in the equipment.
It seems you have assembled a good system for your money and your friend has made a few questionable decisions over his equipment. It's perfectly possible to make a good system from components that compliment each others sound. Likewise it's possible to make a bad one. Just randomly picking a seperate from one range and hoping it'll be a good match for another won't gaurantee sucess.
But splitting the hairs over the top systems is going to be a little lost in the car, granted.
It seems you have assembled a good system for your money and your friend has made a few questionable decisions over his equipment. It's perfectly possible to make a good system from components that compliment each others sound. Likewise it's possible to make a bad one. Just randomly picking a seperate from one range and hoping it'll be a good match for another won't gaurantee sucess.
But splitting the hairs over the top systems is going to be a little lost in the car, granted.
quote:
kingjohn, the vibration is an important element which some of the high end equipment overcomes. For example Nakamichi's top cd player has a disc spinning mechanism that isolates vibration by floating on a magnetic field.
Surely vibration is only an issue with actual audio-related components? Removing vibration from a CD may stop it skipping, but it won't affect any digital processing or electronic components - and the read-ahead and buffering tecniques of car CD players provide anti-skip anyway.
I used to have a very good system in my old BMW which I fitted myself.
The trouble is if you really want top end sound and keep your interior your not going to accheve it without installing extra speakers. Car audio dealers can do door builds to fit larger speakers and using original materials make a very factory looking build.
What I would suggest is you look into replacing your existing speakers with uprated items from Kenwood, Pioneer, Alpine etc along with your head unit most do speakers which will directly replace the factory speakers but will be better quality and be able to handle more power (a speaker rated at 100w running at half its capacity will sound better that one rated at 50w running at 100%). These will tend to be two or three way ie they have speakers within speakers for a wider range of sound.
Thats the first stage and I garantee you will be able to tell the difference. Next you could run the speakers from an amp which could be mounted under your front seat if you have room.
Assuming you now have a new head unit, two speakers in the front and two in the rear shelf you could get a free air sub. It does not need to be large and could be hung below the rear shelf and also be powered via the same amp with a dedicated port or crossover. Basic road noise cancells out a lot of the low frequences and the sub is to replace them.
In the front you could get a couple of tweeters and mount them behind the fresh air vents, if you have central vents even better.
If you are worried about weight then remember that speakers have big magnets in them. Kenwood went a long way trying to reduce weight when they designed the system for the Mac FI with light weight magnets and speaker frames so talk to your local dealer who will be able to advise further .
Paul
The trouble is if you really want top end sound and keep your interior your not going to accheve it without installing extra speakers. Car audio dealers can do door builds to fit larger speakers and using original materials make a very factory looking build.
What I would suggest is you look into replacing your existing speakers with uprated items from Kenwood, Pioneer, Alpine etc along with your head unit most do speakers which will directly replace the factory speakers but will be better quality and be able to handle more power (a speaker rated at 100w running at half its capacity will sound better that one rated at 50w running at 100%). These will tend to be two or three way ie they have speakers within speakers for a wider range of sound.
Thats the first stage and I garantee you will be able to tell the difference. Next you could run the speakers from an amp which could be mounted under your front seat if you have room.
Assuming you now have a new head unit, two speakers in the front and two in the rear shelf you could get a free air sub. It does not need to be large and could be hung below the rear shelf and also be powered via the same amp with a dedicated port or crossover. Basic road noise cancells out a lot of the low frequences and the sub is to replace them.
In the front you could get a couple of tweeters and mount them behind the fresh air vents, if you have central vents even better.
If you are worried about weight then remember that speakers have big magnets in them. Kenwood went a long way trying to reduce weight when they designed the system for the Mac FI with light weight magnets and speaker frames so talk to your local dealer who will be able to advise further .
Paul
The cd player is the most important part of the hi fi chain of components. Even if you start with a good quality cd, the player put's a certain amount of error and noise into the signal. The more expensive players affect this signal less though. The rest of the chain just amplifies what noise / distortion is already in the signal. As the signal passes through each component in turn it's quality drops each time.
If I did fit a system, it would be using Dynaudio speakers. They are the only in car speakers that are proper high fidelity units, primarily used in home hifi - but tweeked for this application. It would only hve speakerd in the front of the car too. This will achieve perfect stereo as intended, like at home. Why is it car manufacturers prefer to scatter the interior with a dozen tweeters and mirange units, rather than concentrate on quality?
quote:
If I did fit a system, it would be using Dynaudio speakers. They are the only in car speakers that are proper high fidelity units, primarily used in home hifi - but tweeked for this application. It would only hve speakerd in the front of the car too. This will achieve perfect stereo as intended, like at home. Why is it car manufacturers prefer to scatter the interior with a dozen tweeters and mirange units, rather than concentrate on quality?
The problem you get with just fitting front speakers unless you drive a Mac F1 is that you sit offset. with four or more speakers you have a better scope to tune them.
Obviously it comes down to money, but Alpine can incorporate time alignment so the left and right hand signals arrive at your ears simutaniously, even though the paths are different lengths. To your ear the net result sounds the same as sitting exactly in the middle of two speakers for perfect stereo imaging.
Paul, (Roadrunner)
One of your namesakes (Paul McCartney) had his motor ripped apart and then re-assembled around his stereo (which probably cost more than the host). A mate of mine (also in music industry) thought it better sounding than any recording studio he'd worked in. I guess if you throw enough money at it!...
I know what you mean re quality, but it's in my car that I enjoy listening to music most, the lack of frequency response (OK BIG TIME) being made up for by the fact that driving occupies all the 'sensible' bits of the brain, leaving the receptive bits a little more open.
(Maybe I'm just strange!)
Steve
>> Edited by getcarter on Thursday 23 May 14:35
One of your namesakes (Paul McCartney) had his motor ripped apart and then re-assembled around his stereo (which probably cost more than the host). A mate of mine (also in music industry) thought it better sounding than any recording studio he'd worked in. I guess if you throw enough money at it!...
I know what you mean re quality, but it's in my car that I enjoy listening to music most, the lack of frequency response (OK BIG TIME) being made up for by the fact that driving occupies all the 'sensible' bits of the brain, leaving the receptive bits a little more open.
(Maybe I'm just strange!)
Steve
>> Edited by getcarter on Thursday 23 May 14:35
I have seen these system and undertand that they can delay the sound from a speaker to create different enviroments, ie by tweeking the sound delays they can make the inside of your car sound like the inside of a church.
The bottom line is that if you dont have a sub you lose low frequency sounds taking away and benefit fitting good speakers in the front.
Remember a sub is unidirectional you dont have to have it pointing at you as you cant tell where the sound is coming from. Get your system done then ask your local Audio dealer to let you test a sub in your car.
The bottom line is that if you dont have a sub you lose low frequency sounds taking away and benefit fitting good speakers in the front.
Remember a sub is unidirectional you dont have to have it pointing at you as you cant tell where the sound is coming from. Get your system done then ask your local Audio dealer to let you test a sub in your car.
Back to your original question, I dont think I'd bother. My personal view is why bother with complicated fitting, custom panels, replacing everything when you have a good system at home.
Its also harder to hear what your car system will actually sound like before you install it, most dealers have everything mounted in mdf cabinets in a quite shop, and normally in pre configured setups, rather than letting you mix and match components like a good hifi shop.
I just use the standard system in my car for "entertainment" and "listen" to music at home with a beer
If you do go for it, check the sensitivity of the speakers, the higher the sensitivity the less power you will need to drive them.
Its also harder to hear what your car system will actually sound like before you install it, most dealers have everything mounted in mdf cabinets in a quite shop, and normally in pre configured setups, rather than letting you mix and match components like a good hifi shop.
I just use the standard system in my car for "entertainment" and "listen" to music at home with a beer
If you do go for it, check the sensitivity of the speakers, the higher the sensitivity the less power you will need to drive them.
Cotty, if I did bother I would have to intal a small sub out of site somewhere. When I mentioned only having 'fronts' I meant the higher frequency units.
I'm not sure it'll be worth the hassle and extra weight though. So probably won't do it. Just a thought though, as I love music at home.
I'm not sure it'll be worth the hassle and extra weight though. So probably won't do it. Just a thought though, as I love music at home.
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