Turbinecharger
Discussion
Anyone got any links to a turbocharger using an associated turbine power unit?
Not a conventional turbocharger with neat fuel squirted into the exhaust to run up on the unburnt oxygen, but a true turbine charger where the tubocharger and the turbine share a connected shaft.
The turbine is run by the turbocharger in normal mode. And in boost mode the turbine is fuelled thereby providing the turbo with exhaust scavenging and boost air pressure for the engine.
Just thought of this as a project, but can't find anyone who has already done this. Surely this can't be a new idea?
Not a conventional turbocharger with neat fuel squirted into the exhaust to run up on the unburnt oxygen, but a true turbine charger where the tubocharger and the turbine share a connected shaft.
The turbine is run by the turbocharger in normal mode. And in boost mode the turbine is fuelled thereby providing the turbo with exhaust scavenging and boost air pressure for the engine.
Just thought of this as a project, but can't find anyone who has already done this. Surely this can't be a new idea?
What you describe sounds in fact like a turbocharger ...
A turbocharger has turbine at each end of a shaft. One turbine is turned by the exhaust gas pressure.
This rotation makes the shaft and the other turbine rotate.
That second turbine's rotation then forces more air into the engine, which allows more fuel to be burnt and hence more power developed.
Is what you are proposing different?
A turbocharger has turbine at each end of a shaft. One turbine is turned by the exhaust gas pressure.
This rotation makes the shaft and the other turbine rotate.
That second turbine's rotation then forces more air into the engine, which allows more fuel to be burnt and hence more power developed.
Is what you are proposing different?
Thats how a turbine works, just with a turbo charger the air charge doesn't feed linearly into the combustion chamber,
you can turn a turbo charger into a turbine, basically a pipe between the inlet turbine and the exhaust turbine. Add some sort of fuel injector and an ignition source, you need some method of spinning up the turbine first (compressed air?) to get it started once you're going, power is regulated by the amount of fuel you put in, although with a turbo you can use the wastegate.
you can turn a turbo charger into a turbine, basically a pipe between the inlet turbine and the exhaust turbine. Add some sort of fuel injector and an ignition source, you need some method of spinning up the turbine first (compressed air?) to get it started once you're going, power is regulated by the amount of fuel you put in, although with a turbo you can use the wastegate.
annodomini2 said:
Thats how a turbine works, just with a turbo charger the air charge doesn't feed linearly into the combustion chamber,
It feeds into the air intake/inlet manifold ... doesn't it? Not sure exactly - I had a look at a broken one a while ago and it seemed to work like this.
annodomini2 said:
you can turn a turbo charger into a turbine, basically a pipe between the inlet turbine and the exhaust turbine. Add some sort of fuel injector and an ignition source, you need some method of spinning up the turbine first (compressed air?) to get it started once you're going, power is regulated by the amount of fuel you put in, although with a turbo you can use the wastegate.
Not sure I understand this.
Why would you want to pipe the contents of the exhaust back into the engine inlet?
Ummm ... are you suggesting using an alternative power source - seperate combustion chamber for eg - to power the turbine?
And if so, once it's powered what do you do with it? Force air into the engine inlet system as with a turbo?
Sorry, I'm a little confused
>> Edited by JohnL on Thursday 24th June 14:36
not sure if this is what you are after.
www.nickhaddock.co.uk/jetkart.htm
or
www.gasturbine.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/page1.htm
i was looking this up before, and found many more interesting pages. search for things like:-
-diy gas turbine
-pulse jet engine
-homemade jet engine
etc
www.nickhaddock.co.uk/jetkart.htm
or
www.gasturbine.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/page1.htm
i was looking this up before, and found many more interesting pages. search for things like:-
-diy gas turbine
-pulse jet engine
-homemade jet engine
etc
Nope sorry, maybe I'm not explaining myself properly. Lets try again.
In my engine of the future fancy we have.
A conventional engine with an attached turbocharger. This works exactly the same as a turbo charged engine. Exhaust gases spin the turbine blades of the turbocharger and the shaft is also connected to a pump which compresses air for the inlet of the engine. Its failings are two fold. It causes backpressure in the exhaust side of the engine and only works as a decent pump in the inlet when the engine is at high rpm.
Now consider my addition. A conventional turbo charger is modified so that the shaft on which sits the exhaust and inlet turbines is enlogated outside the conventional turbine. Connect to this a jet engine (which is no more than a second turbocharger with a simple combustion chamber connecting the two turbines, rather like in your URLs)
What you will now have is a jet engine powering your turbocharger. The jet gets switched on with the engine and spins the turbo up to operating speed.
The advantage is the conventional piston engine is no longer having to power the turbocharger with the exhaust gases. The Turbocharger is now actively sucking out exhaust gases and pumping in air at the same time.
If I said that jet engine could be the size of a coffee cup, no flames no nothing just controlled by a small fuel pump.
Would I have a go'er?
In my engine of the future fancy we have.
A conventional engine with an attached turbocharger. This works exactly the same as a turbo charged engine. Exhaust gases spin the turbine blades of the turbocharger and the shaft is also connected to a pump which compresses air for the inlet of the engine. Its failings are two fold. It causes backpressure in the exhaust side of the engine and only works as a decent pump in the inlet when the engine is at high rpm.
Now consider my addition. A conventional turbo charger is modified so that the shaft on which sits the exhaust and inlet turbines is enlogated outside the conventional turbine. Connect to this a jet engine (which is no more than a second turbocharger with a simple combustion chamber connecting the two turbines, rather like in your URLs)
What you will now have is a jet engine powering your turbocharger. The jet gets switched on with the engine and spins the turbo up to operating speed.
The advantage is the conventional piston engine is no longer having to power the turbocharger with the exhaust gases. The Turbocharger is now actively sucking out exhaust gases and pumping in air at the same time.
If I said that jet engine could be the size of a coffee cup, no flames no nothing just controlled by a small fuel pump.
Would I have a go'er?
quite possibly.
but then why not remove the turbine from the exhauts stream and just power the pump with the jet?
this would get rid of the obstructions causing the back pressure, and if the jet exhaust was fed into the exhaust pipe further down you could create a vacuum at the exhaust valve. negative back pressure(forward pressure?)
but then why not remove the turbine from the exhauts stream and just power the pump with the jet?
this would get rid of the obstructions causing the back pressure, and if the jet exhaust was fed into the exhaust pipe further down you could create a vacuum at the exhaust valve. negative back pressure(forward pressure?)
gzus11 said:
quite possibly.
but then why not remove the turbine from the exhauts stream and just power the pump with the jet?
this would get rid of the obstructions causing the back pressure, and if the jet exhaust was fed into the exhaust pipe further down you could create a vacuum at the exhaust valve. negative back pressure(forward pressure?)
True. But you might lose a bit of control of the system. Easier to dumpvalve if you didn't want the default level of suck, rather than have to find a way of destroying the vaccuum casued by the jet
>> Edited by Julian64 on Friday 25th June 17:59
You mean a high speed supercharger driven by a gas turbine instead of the exhaust gas from the engine, although, this would improve gas flow through the exhaust, the wasted energy of the exhaust which is used in a turbo to drive the turbine would be again lost and you would have the added benefit of the fuel wasted in running the turbine.
Although this theoretically could increase the power of an existing engine, the efficiency may go out the window.
Plus there are already electric turbochargers out there and an electric motor is a lot more efficient than a gas turbine.
Although this theoretically could increase the power of an existing engine, the efficiency may go out the window.
Plus there are already electric turbochargers out there and an electric motor is a lot more efficient than a gas turbine.
I thought electric turbochargers were a non starter because of the overhead of the alternator needed to run them.
With my system you already carry the fuel required, (possibly with a small add desel mix). The size of gas turbine I envisage would use about 200ml/min.
And I'm not disconnecting the original turbocharger from the engine. It would still act like a normal turbocharger until its external power supply (the gas turbine) was switched on, at which point it would dramatically increase the effectiveness of the turbine on the engine for the cost of the fuel.
With my system you already carry the fuel required, (possibly with a small add desel mix). The size of gas turbine I envisage would use about 200ml/min.
And I'm not disconnecting the original turbocharger from the engine. It would still act like a normal turbocharger until its external power supply (the gas turbine) was switched on, at which point it would dramatically increase the effectiveness of the turbine on the engine for the cost of the fuel.
You're describing a hyperbar, Nick Mann has built one of these I believe. Basically you use a jet engine (a normal turbo can be used like this, although I think Nick used a helicopter aux power unit) to compress the inlet charge up to a constant pressure eg 5 bar, the engine has a throttled supply off this. Effectively, the compressed fresh air generated by the turbine has two routes: through the engine, or back through the jet engine's burner. Either way, the exhaust drives the exhaust turbine. As the demands of the engine change the proportion of charge going through each route varies, the overall flow rate and pressure remains constant. You control the turbine speed and boost by the amount of fuel injected into the jet burners.
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