Allblacks are back.....
Discussion
Yipeee, what a game two games clean sweep. I really thought it would be much closer games, but I guess home territory and great crowds but some life back into them. Anyway the poms played well except for dirty tactics which seen them one down. The way the blacks played, I don't see it as making much difference even if they had a full team. 
Oh btw those boys look great in those tight little tops
Oh btw those boys look great in those tight little tops
The real disappointment for the English must be the sulky teenager persona of their coach. This "it wasn't our fault" bollocks is more shameful than the kneeing incident.Blaming the linesman, blaming the crowd, blaming the on-screen replays, coming up with (real or imagined) inconsistencies between the refereeing last night and that of a year ago,-it all reeks of "not playing, wasn't ready-I'm taking my ball home"
And as for 'We are a better team than the Allbacks'-despite the results-it does start to look like abject despair and denial. Mr W is not well-practised at losing, but he'll get a bit of a workout in that area in the future I suspect.
And as for 'We are a better team than the Allbacks'-despite the results-it does start to look like abject despair and denial. Mr W is not well-practised at losing, but he'll get a bit of a workout in that area in the future I suspect.
Ya see I disagree there.... I think England still would have lost had they had a full compliment but I think it would have been right down to the wire.... EVERY allblack try in that game was scored on an overlap basically because England ran out of players.... and without Shaw, their most crucial lineout jumper, England were getting no quality lineout ball at all really...... I think the Red card was pretty damned harsh.... It was a yellow offence at best (considering that BOTH teams proceeded to do worse for the rest of the game and got off scot-free).
I think Clive Woodward's comments were spot-on really.... the English were outplayed comprehensively on this tour and a lot of work is going to have to be done on the squad to get them competitive against a side like NZ but I dont think the gap is as big as many imagine..... I think there are a couple of English players that have had a SHOCKING tour form-wide..... Josh Lewsey seems to be the standout for me.... completely hopeless anywhere on the field, whereas at the world cup he was magic.....
Good on the ABs, they beat the English fair and square, but I think we'll see a different England side by the six nations next year.... and of course the 2007 World Cup, England will be in a very strong position to defend.... It's all about winning the ones that matter.
I think Clive Woodward's comments were spot-on really.... the English were outplayed comprehensively on this tour and a lot of work is going to have to be done on the squad to get them competitive against a side like NZ but I dont think the gap is as big as many imagine..... I think there are a couple of English players that have had a SHOCKING tour form-wide..... Josh Lewsey seems to be the standout for me.... completely hopeless anywhere on the field, whereas at the world cup he was magic.....
Good on the ABs, they beat the English fair and square, but I think we'll see a different England side by the six nations next year.... and of course the 2007 World Cup, England will be in a very strong position to defend.... It's all about winning the ones that matter.
I don't think anyone would dispute that, had Shaw not been sent off, it would have been a MUCH closer game than last week's. Where you part company with the sulky Sir Clive is that you admit the possibility that the ABs would still have got there. Woodward is a true chauvanist (and there's something heroic in that) in that he believes his team is the best, even when the evidence is mounting that there may be another story.
Had the English won, no matter what the tactics, you can bet that Woodward would be playing down any English foul play ( and I'm not suggesting that they were the "bad guys" in that respect) and telling the ABs to get over themselves and face facts.
Whenever I read that English Rugger writer with the porn-star mustache in the Sunday paper (must stop doing that) I am astounded that this is the same culture who laughs at Americans for their lack of irony.
Had the English won, no matter what the tactics, you can bet that Woodward would be playing down any English foul play ( and I'm not suggesting that they were the "bad guys" in that respect) and telling the ABs to get over themselves and face facts.
Whenever I read that English Rugger writer with the porn-star mustache in the Sunday paper (must stop doing that) I am astounded that this is the same culture who laughs at Americans for their lack of irony.
Well done All Blacks a good win. Shame it wasn't the test match we all wanted to see but that's rugby.
Personally I'm glad it's over because I really just don't like the anti-English sentiment that is heightened when our two countries meet. It's not just friendly leg-pulling but really quite beligerant. Kiwis (like my wife) don't really notice it, but when you're on the receiving end you start to feel like an Arab in New York.
Also, when England win a game over NZ (be it Rugby, cricket, soccer etc) I always try and play it down as there's nothing worse than a bad winner. In fact, I think it's worse than being a bad loser, but then I would say that, I'm English.
Personally I'm glad it's over because I really just don't like the anti-English sentiment that is heightened when our two countries meet. It's not just friendly leg-pulling but really quite beligerant. Kiwis (like my wife) don't really notice it, but when you're on the receiving end you start to feel like an Arab in New York.
Also, when England win a game over NZ (be it Rugby, cricket, soccer etc) I always try and play it down as there's nothing worse than a bad winner. In fact, I think it's worse than being a bad loser, but then I would say that, I'm English.
jamieheasman said:
Personally I'm glad it's over because I really just don't like the anti-English sentiment that is heightened when our two countries meet. It's not just friendly leg-pulling but really quite beligerant. Kiwis (like my wife) don't really notice it, but when you're on the receiving end you start to feel like an Arab in New York.
Now now that's not true Jaime, it really is just a game, I know its taken seriously here by some people....but at the end of the day you should not ever feel seperated, look at the Kiwi flag what does it have on it ay! We are apart of you guys if you like it or not as with the Aussies also.
I shall second what Jamie said.... being a pom,it opens you up to a fair bit of abuse.... not all of it good-humoured.... After the world cup, I was amongst the revellers, but at no point was I anti ANY of the other teams (Australia just about caught us napping and the AB vs. England matchup was the final that never was)... but lately, walk down the street in my England jersey and get stuff thrown at you, (not just verbal abuse) from passing cars etc, and you really quickly learn that the England football hooligan ain't the only evil in international sports-supporter. Even the good-natured ribbing I've had lately has been rather personal....... and throughout it all I never mentioned that We've just handed out a 3-0 spanking in the cricket.... I think some people forget that you can't (or rather won't)win everything all the time..... I used to support the ABs over anyone else but England.... but come the tri-nations, I'll be secretly and quietly hoping that the boks give the ABs a thumping.
>> Edited by Esprit on Monday 21st June 08:03
>> Edited by Esprit on Monday 21st June 08:03
jamieheasman said:
Well done All Blacks a good win. Shame it wasn't the test match we all wanted to see but that's rugby.
Personally I'm glad it's over because I really just don't like the anti-English sentiment that is heightened when our two countries meet. It's not just friendly leg-pulling but really quite beligerant. Kiwis (like my wife) don't really notice it, but when you're on the receiving end you start to feel like an Arab in New York.
Also, when England win a game over NZ (be it Rugby, cricket, soccer etc) I always try and play it down as there's nothing worse than a bad winner. In fact, I think it's worse than being a bad loser, but then I would say that, I'm English.
Try being a kiwi in London when England won the world cup ! Most poms who tried to have me on about it soon shut up when I immediately told them I thought England deserved to win. Which they did.
The same as in anything you will always get a few twats who want to bash the poms or bash the kiwis but the reality is anyone who is a decent person should not make it too personal......
whitey said:
Personally I'm glad it's over because I really just don't like the anti-English sentiment that is heightened when our two countries meet. It's not just friendly leg-pulling but really quite beligerant. Kiwis (like my wife) don't really notice it, but when you're on the receiving end you start to feel like an Arab in New York.
Try being a kiwi in London when England won the world cup ! Most poms who tried to have me on about it soon shut up when I immediately told them I thought England deserved to win. Which they did.
The same as in anything you will always get a few twats who want to bash the poms or bash the kiwis but the reality is anyone who is a decent person should not make it too personal......
Agreed, I still get angry when I think of the Kiwi who called me an arrogany w**ker in front of about 20 people in the checkout at the Warehouse during the world cup as I was wearing an England shirt. He changed his tune when I squared up to him (and I'm a short arse).
Hmm, I was having a bad day yesterday. It didn't help getting abuse and cans hurled at me from a passing car on Saturday night (seems there's a pattern here) when I took the dog for a walk or the snide remarks made by the cashier in the service station (and if he was a Kiwi then I'm Eddie Jones). I guess that's what I get for renting in a dodgy area! Oh, I had a very subdued England T-shirt on too (red and blue) so I wasn't exactly flaunting my nationality.
Incidentally I saw the World Cup final in Aussie at Bathurst whilst the GTs were racing (as I may have mentioned) and that was very scarey - the only white shirt amongst several thousand pissed V8-nutters. I was verbally abused from all angles and I was told I was brave 'wearing that around here maaate' but no harm was done. In fact once I'd fronted up to a couple of people and congratulated them on a good game I was given a wry smile and sent on my way with a 'We've still got the Ashes'. I didn't have the heart to tell him that they didn't, they only had a replica!
Let's hope we have a good showing against the Aussies at the weekend now that England have done us proud in Euro 2004.
Incidentally I saw the World Cup final in Aussie at Bathurst whilst the GTs were racing (as I may have mentioned) and that was very scarey - the only white shirt amongst several thousand pissed V8-nutters. I was verbally abused from all angles and I was told I was brave 'wearing that around here maaate' but no harm was done. In fact once I'd fronted up to a couple of people and congratulated them on a good game I was given a wry smile and sent on my way with a 'We've still got the Ashes'. I didn't have the heart to tell him that they didn't, they only had a replica!
Let's hope we have a good showing against the Aussies at the weekend now that England have done us proud in Euro 2004.
jamieheasman said:
Hmm, I was having a bad day yesterday. It didn't help getting abuse and cans hurled at me from a passing car on Saturday night (seems there's a pattern here) when I took the dog for a walk or the snide remarks made by the cashier in the service station (and if he was a Kiwi then I'm Eddie Jones). I guess that's what I get for renting in a dodgy area! Oh, I had a very subdued England T-shirt on too (red and blue) so I wasn't exactly flaunting my nationality.
Incidentally I saw the World Cup final in Aussie at Bathurst whilst the GTs were racing (as I may have mentioned) and that was very scarey - the only white shirt amongst several thousand pissed V8-nutters. I was verbally abused from all angles and I was told I was brave 'wearing that around here maaate' but no harm was done. In fact once I'd fronted up to a couple of people and congratulated them on a good game I was given a wry smile and sent on my way with a 'We've still got the Ashes'. I didn't have the heart to tell him that they didn't, they only had a replica!
Let's hope we have a good showing against the Aussies at the weekend now that England have done us proud in Euro 2004.
Too true mate, all too often in NZ, they'll jump on you and not realise the difference between a bit of good-natured ribbing (like they seem to be happy to give to the aussie fans) and something a lil more sinister like us brits seem to get. I'll admit, I wear my England replica shirt proudly.... on days when we're playing an international, I'll wear my football shirt proudly, when the F1 is on, I'll wear my Jaguar Racing shirt (slightly less, at the moment) proudly.... and if we win, I'm often the first to congratulate supporters of other teams as to how well their team played.... I'm not one to rub peoples' noses in defeat..... I hate that term...... "arrogant"... I think it was a buzzword that got used by the press to sum up Clive Woodward's single-mindedness going into the cup.... and now wherever I go, if I'm wearing red/white then I'm an "arrogant pom".... something that I'm definitely not.... I've been proudly wearing my English colours since we lost to Astralia in the '91 final... I proudly wore them when Rob Andrew Kicked us to victory in the '95 semis and when Jonah and the ABs steamrolled us a week later... I think as Brits, we've learned to savour our wins and stick with it through the hard times...... one thing's for sure, if the scores had been reversed in both matches in the last fortnight, Henry would already be on shaky ground, as would the selectors and most of the squad..... but we've learned before ('99RWC failure) that if you stick to a plan, it can eventually pay off and you can turn things around and rise to be champions.... this isn't a new thing either, I remember getting concussion at a NZ vs. England cricket game after being struck by a bottle several years back when I was doing nothng more than supporting my team.... I think that in NZ the sport culture is so ingrained, that some people have a tough time remembering that it's only a game and that as fans, we're all there for the same reason..... to cheer our team on, and when we leave, whatever the result, we think better of our opponents, not less.
It's appalling what you two have had to put up with and I can only apologise on behalf of Nzers (rather limp I know) There is a rabid element in this country, no doubt about it. I remember when i was very anti-rugby (in the 1980s) fearing for my life when I dared,with others, to suggest that games against South Africa -who were still imprisoning Mandela at the time-were not a good idea. I even got attacked by one of our glorious law-enforcement officers for threatenig his game of rugger. This is appalling behaviour you (Jamie= Esprit) have had to endure and it reflects SO badly on us. It's a minority here (as with football hooligans in the UK-and wherever England plays) but it's still pretty prevalent by the sounds of it and badmouthing people for daring to support the opposing team is just assinine.
I'm afraid you guys have been tarred with the same brush as the genuinely arrogant dickheads who got a lot of TV time over the world cup, crowing about their successes as if they had kicked all of Wilkinson's goals personally.
Anyway, conclusion seems to be that unfortunately we have a fair number of boorish thugs in this country who are inadequate enough to need to abuse English supporters.
Like you both, all i can do is report my own experience. I dont behave that way, nor do any of my friends.
Oh, and I still don't like Sir Clive's behaviour. I still think he's being arrogant and childish. But then I'm not English.
Oh, and I'm puzzled, Esprit-you have lived here most of your life but still talk as if you've just popped over from Blighty for a quick decko-I don't gettit.
I'm afraid you guys have been tarred with the same brush as the genuinely arrogant dickheads who got a lot of TV time over the world cup, crowing about their successes as if they had kicked all of Wilkinson's goals personally.
Anyway, conclusion seems to be that unfortunately we have a fair number of boorish thugs in this country who are inadequate enough to need to abuse English supporters.
Like you both, all i can do is report my own experience. I dont behave that way, nor do any of my friends.
Oh, and I still don't like Sir Clive's behaviour. I still think he's being arrogant and childish. But then I'm not English.
Oh, and I'm puzzled, Esprit-you have lived here most of your life but still talk as if you've just popped over from Blighty for a quick decko-I don't gettit.
I agree Roger.... you're right, it's not the majority of NZ supporters that do it, it's indeed a boorish minority..... unfortunately, it's them that seem to make themselves most well-known (and not in a nice way). On the flipside, over the years I've had some fantastic matches sat side-by-side with kiwi fans (and South-Africans, Australians etc.) just enjoying the sport, but in NZ, the prevalence of nasty behaviour is at such a level where you can't walk down the street in an England jersey without fearing some soer of retribution from some (usually young, male) yob..... I also have experienced similar sort of abuse wearing my "Wellington Hurricanes" jersey a few years back in Canterbury, it's not necessarily just external.
As for my nationality, I have been in NZ most of my life and it's true that many people would consider me a kiwi, but I definitely don't consider myself one, and I never will. To me, my heritage is important and I've always felt an intense sense of attachment to my birthplace and always will do. Trips back there in my younger years was enough to tell me that I felt at home there. However, I do love NZ too and it will always be my second home and I intend to spend much of the rest of my life here.
As for my support of English sport, I think I realised it when I was about 9 years old.... after years of listening to my peers bang on about how the haka made them feel before an international, it simply did nothing for me..... but the first time I saw England playing at Twickenham and the resounding chorus of "swing low, sweet chariot" accompanied the kickoff.... I knew that instant what team I would support from then on.
As for my nationality, I have been in NZ most of my life and it's true that many people would consider me a kiwi, but I definitely don't consider myself one, and I never will. To me, my heritage is important and I've always felt an intense sense of attachment to my birthplace and always will do. Trips back there in my younger years was enough to tell me that I felt at home there. However, I do love NZ too and it will always be my second home and I intend to spend much of the rest of my life here.
As for my support of English sport, I think I realised it when I was about 9 years old.... after years of listening to my peers bang on about how the haka made them feel before an international, it simply did nothing for me..... but the first time I saw England playing at Twickenham and the resounding chorus of "swing low, sweet chariot" accompanied the kickoff.... I knew that instant what team I would support from then on.
I've got loads of good stuff to say about NZ and Kiwis in general. One of the best things about posting my down-in-the-dumps reaction the other day was the warm replies I've received from the Kiwis on this list.
The vast majority of Kiwis are kind, friendly people who I have a lot of time and respect for. Like any country there are always those that spoil things for the majority or portay the wrong image at the wrong time (English soccer fans would be a case in point).
Sorry for being so negative! I'm off to England in a month so I'll have a chance to fill-up on Marks & Spencers grub, real ale and British sports cars - then I'll feel much better!
The vast majority of Kiwis are kind, friendly people who I have a lot of time and respect for. Like any country there are always those that spoil things for the majority or portay the wrong image at the wrong time (English soccer fans would be a case in point).
Sorry for being so negative! I'm off to England in a month so I'll have a chance to fill-up on Marks & Spencers grub, real ale and British sports cars - then I'll feel much better!
Jamie-Don't wait till you go back to the UK to feel better. Go see Shrek 2 with your kids-I did that yesterday and it's bloody good fun.
Also, I read a brilliantly funny (English) book the other day called The Best A man Can get, by John o'farrell-it's laugh-out-loud stuff and very good for anyone who has ever had kids-Hazel (my Scottish wife) and I are now reading his Things Can Only get Better, subtitled "Eighteen Miserable Years in The Life of A Labour supporter" which also looks superb.
Also, I read a brilliantly funny (English) book the other day called The Best A man Can get, by John o'farrell-it's laugh-out-loud stuff and very good for anyone who has ever had kids-Hazel (my Scottish wife) and I are now reading his Things Can Only get Better, subtitled "Eighteen Miserable Years in The Life of A Labour supporter" which also looks superb.
Gassing Station | New Zealand | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff