Group 'B' Rally cars
Discussion
Slower than modern rally cars, as the chassis, suspension development has increased so much.
The Group B's had somewhere in the region of 400 (MG 6R4) to 450 (Peugeot T16) some slightly more. Although Audi had a 1000bhp rally engine on the dyno at the time the Group B's were cancelled. Modern WRC's have 300bhp.
6R4's still compete in National rallies against modern Imprezza's, Focus's, Escort WRC's and are still competitive.
Group B Rally Cars link
www.stormloader.com/groupb/index.html
>> Edited by FourWheelDrift on Tuesday 8th June 13:08
The Group B's had somewhere in the region of 400 (MG 6R4) to 450 (Peugeot T16) some slightly more. Although Audi had a 1000bhp rally engine on the dyno at the time the Group B's were cancelled. Modern WRC's have 300bhp.
6R4's still compete in National rallies against modern Imprezza's, Focus's, Escort WRC's and are still competitive.
Group B Rally Cars link
www.stormloader.com/groupb/index.html
>> Edited by FourWheelDrift on Tuesday 8th June 13:08
crankedup said:
Like lots of enthusiasts can well remember these being hurled around the countryside in dramatic fashion indeed. But how do they measure up alongside the modern rally car?
Modern rally cars do have slightly more advanced suspension and more sophisticated engine management systems but quite frankly they wouldn't stand a chance against Group B cars. To put it into perspective, all current WRC cars have restrictors which limit power to an absolute maximum of about 312bhp, and most current cars weigh about 1200kg in race spec. A Group B Lancia Delta S4 has a turbocharged AND supercharged engine which pushes out over 470bhp and in a car which in race spec weighs 900kg. Thats 260bhp/tonne against 520bhp/tonne. With that kind of power the Lancia could reach 60mph from standstill in 2.7 seconds ON GRAVEL!
The difference in weight is due to the fact that current WRC cars may have some carbon fibre bits but they are still based on road car bodies. Most Group B cars were purpose built with a space frame chassis. The maddest one of all was probably the Audi Sport Quattro S1 from 1986 which had a simply ludicrous 600bhp.
>> Edited by Control on Tuesday 8th June 15:45
I think the better handling WRC cars will be quicker though the current World Rally stages due to the limits applied to the stages. Plus current FIA rules say that rally cars may not exceed 110kph (with 20% tolerance) in special stages.
www.fia.com/resources/documents/1356729206__FIA_Rally_WRC_2004_a.pdf
www.fia.com/resources/documents/1356729206__FIA_Rally_WRC_2004_a.pdf
FourWheelDrift said:That's bizarre! What happens when all the cars are developed to the stage where they all achieve 110kph average? The winner will become the one that gets closest to the average without going over and getting disqualified. Odd.
Plus current FIA rules say that rally cars may not exceed 110kph (with 20% tolerance) in special stages.
I've heard it all now. A motorsport series that has a speed limit whilst competing? 
Unbelievable!
Edit: As you can probably tell, I haven't followed rallying for a few years, although used to be quite into it in the late 80's & early 90's.
>> Edited by JonRB on Tuesday 8th June 17:03
Unbelievable!
Edit: As you can probably tell, I haven't followed rallying for a few years, although used to be quite into it in the late 80's & early 90's.
>> Edited by JonRB on Tuesday 8th June 17:03
That's maximum average speed in the stage........Article 3.4 on the above pdf if you want to check. Not sure if it means over the whole stage or an average of the highest speed you can do. Odd anyway.
Although I think they also stipulate that any rally stage must not have a straight over a certain length so they will never go much faster than that anyway. It's all about twisty sections now.
Although the European truck racing series has had speed limiters for a few years now.
>> Edited by FourWheelDrift on Tuesday 8th June 17:14
>> Edited by FourWheelDrift on Tuesday 8th June 17:16
Although I think they also stipulate that any rally stage must not have a straight over a certain length so they will never go much faster than that anyway. It's all about twisty sections now.
Although the European truck racing series has had speed limiters for a few years now.
>> Edited by FourWheelDrift on Tuesday 8th June 17:14
>> Edited by FourWheelDrift on Tuesday 8th June 17:16
I think if you had the kind of development now seen in WRC applied to the Group B cars they would be miles faster. However, the stages and the average speed issue have changed the style of rallying. Tarmac rallies already have average speed limits, while it seems mad, it is quite sensible. Until you have total control over where spectators stand, you have to control the speed of cars on the stages. Having them tank along at 130mph down single track country lanes for mile after mile isn't a great idea, given the amount of run off area not available....
Interestingly, when the WRC cars first made their appearance, Juha Kankunnen reckoned that a Group 4 Escort would have been faster on tarmac.
Interestingly, when the WRC cars first made their appearance, Juha Kankunnen reckoned that a Group 4 Escort would have been faster on tarmac.
FourWheelDrift said:
I think the better handling WRC cars will be quicker though the current World Rally stages due to the limits applied to the stages. Plus current FIA rules say that rally cars may not exceed 110kph (with 20% tolerance) in special stages.
A 110kph limit in an event like that is just laughable, thats only 68mph! Having these artificial restrictions seems to be the fashion in every motorsport these days. Is understandable wanting some form of spectator protection but I think they're going a bit overboard. The Group Bs could reach 140mph so stopping the fun at 68mph is a bit much. I reckon its worth having to dodge out of the way if theres something like these to watch:
>> Edited by Control on Tuesday 8th June 23:16
110kph is an average, of course - top speeds are rather in excess of that.
It's hard to believe, but WRC cars are faster than Group B cars over current stages. They may not have much power, but they do have bucket loads of torque and amazing handling. Rally cars don't get nearly as sideways as they once did and are driven more like racing cars these days - which is more efficient but less exciting to watch.
But... I reckon that if a Group B car was fitted with modern spec diffs, tyres, dampers and engine management (without any other really fundamental changes), a Group B car would be really, wonderfully silly!
It's hard to believe, but WRC cars are faster than Group B cars over current stages. They may not have much power, but they do have bucket loads of torque and amazing handling. Rally cars don't get nearly as sideways as they once did and are driven more like racing cars these days - which is more efficient but less exciting to watch.
But... I reckon that if a Group B car was fitted with modern spec diffs, tyres, dampers and engine management (without any other really fundamental changes), a Group B car would be really, wonderfully silly!
There is still a 6R4 competing in the british Rallycross championship (I think it might be leading).
GroupB cars can still mix it with the WRC boys but it's becoming more difficult!
Pat Doran has just given up with his RS200 because it keeps breaking down so is getting a 550bhp fiesta instead!
GroupB cars can still mix it with the WRC boys but it's becoming more difficult!
Pat Doran has just given up with his RS200 because it keeps breaking down so is getting a 550bhp fiesta instead!
funkynige said:
Big truck racing (round the circuits, not the monster trucks) is limited to 100mph, any more than that and they would go through the safety barriers!
But that's in straight line? Can't you go as fast round corners as you can get away with?
I wonder what would happen if you fitted a Quattro S1 with 21st century tyres and let it loose on a rally stage?
There's more than one S1 left - not many more, but definitely more than one. There are probably a few left in the garages of certain Scandinavian rallycross drivers that we don't know about, that won't have been used since the early '90s. There was only one Pikes Peak car, of course, though numerous replicas have been built.
If I ever scoop that lottery win, an S1 is right at the top of my list!
If I ever scoop that lottery win, an S1 is right at the top of my list!
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