Worth moving from 2xt forester to 2.5 xten ?
Discussion
Performance really. I think there is an extra 50bhp to be had. I'd looked at maping the 2lt but would then also need to upgrade wheels and arb. Also the xten has a manual box and I've currently got an auto. But the 2.5 has done 80k. Dealer wants 1500 to do the deal which is what I would have spent modding the 2lt anyway.
Hi i have had my 2.5 XT (2005 plate) now for 2 years, it has done just over 77k until a few weeks ago when the oil pickup pipe in the sump cracked.
The car been reguarly serviced with no signs apart from the oil going slightly darker at around 74k. So it was changed and a few weeks later total engine fail.
I understand that the oil pressure switch only requires approx 4 psi to operate.
Please check these links as it seems to be not such an isolated incident.
http://www.subaruforester.org/vbulletin/f75/has-ha...
http://photos.killerbmotorsport.com/GalleryThumbna...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RBmap_n6WNQ
I don't want to put you off what is a good car, but this is something to consider.
Also check the rear shocks, self levelling the seals do go £400 each without fitting.
The car been reguarly serviced with no signs apart from the oil going slightly darker at around 74k. So it was changed and a few weeks later total engine fail.
I understand that the oil pressure switch only requires approx 4 psi to operate.
Please check these links as it seems to be not such an isolated incident.
http://www.subaruforester.org/vbulletin/f75/has-ha...
http://photos.killerbmotorsport.com/GalleryThumbna...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RBmap_n6WNQ
I don't want to put you off what is a good car, but this is something to consider.
Also check the rear shocks, self levelling the seals do go £400 each without fitting.
5paul5 said:
I may be missing something here but what the hell can impact with an internal engine pipe ? Only another part of the engine internals surely.
Hi, according to a post taken from SubaruForester.org It's not the pipe being hit by internal parts as this is well clear, it is bolted on the underside of the engine.
The fault is in the design and the fact that it is brazed on it's joints rather that tig welded etc.
Exract taken from Subaruforester.org:
For those of you not familiar here's what causes the failure...
The state of modification has nothing to do with the pickup failures, at least I have no correlation based on the data I've collected. Here's a copy/paste from another thread I made a while back explaining the failures...
So on to the factory pickups… They are brazed assemblies (it's kind of like welding, but more like soldering with temperatures much lower than welding ~800 degrees. The braze is the gold stuff you see between the parts, see pictures here). For the braze to properly hold the metal pieces together this stuff called 'flux' is put on the areas where the braze will be applied. The flux makes sure that when the parts are heated up that the braze flows between and sticks to the metal parts properly. When operators, or machines, puts the flux on these parts to get them ready for brazing, the flux must AT LEAST cover the area that needs to be brazed together. So the application of the flux is typically quite liberal and sloppy.
This application of flux and brazing seems to be done properly because I've never seen a braze joint failure. The problem is that the flux SHOULD be cleaned from the parts after the brazing process has been completed. We'll come back to this in a second.
Now the tube, where the failures occur, is a simple thin (~.030") wall seam welded tube. A seam welded tube is basically a long skinny flat piece of metal that gets rolled into a tube and then welded where the ends meet. If you look at some of the pics in my link above you'll see a distinct line that runs the length of the tube. That's the weld. Welded tubing has its downside. While cheap, the weld can be the achilies heal if not done properly. When done properly a weld in low carbon steel will be harder, stronger and more brittle. In this situation it's a rougher surface too (when you look under a microscope, compared to the non-welded areas). Anytime there is an irregularity on the surface of a material with lumps, bumps, pits, etc., it creates a weakness.
OK so let’s get back to the braze… When not removed from certain process affected areas, specifically a hardened brittle weld, it will get into any micro pock mark or pit when it's applied and heated and a chemical reaction will occur. The flux reacts with the specific metal condition of the weld (harder and pits, etc..) and will etch into the pits making them deeper... and can also make the metal more brittle too. This is what ends up weakening the tube to the point of crack formation. And the fact that it's bolted to the bottom of an engine and exposed to vibrations doesn't help either.
Speaking to vibrations and engines modified with bolt-ons. Engine vibration is not as much a contributing factor as you might initially think for a few reasons. The rotating assemblies are fairly well balanced and harmonically dampened. The oil pickup is submerged in oil, and filled with oil. This dampens the engine vibrations tremendously at the pickup. Some assume the pickup is just swinging around from the engine vibrations, but forget that the pickup is also in oil and full of oil. Now where high frequency vibrations do come from is the oil pump. Typically called ‘high frequency pressure pulsation’, these lower amplitude pulses can have a more pronounced affect because of harmonics that can build in the pickup assembly, possibly where a critical frequency may be being reached at certain RPMs (speed of the oil pump).
So essentially, based on what I have experienced and learned, the OEM oil pickup failures are initiated from a chemical reaction from braze flux on the weld seam and these weakened areas are taken advantage of by oil pump induced high frequency vibrations.
And in the post above ^ there are a bunch more pictures since then.
CaptainSlow said:
Pricing is so varied on Foresters, you see similar cars with £ks price difference
Depending on miles I'd put your 03 plate at below £4k, which makes the £1,500 seem strange.
My 03 is low miles and in good nick. The dealer knows he can sell it on and he knows the car. Suspect that xt values have been kept artificially higher at present (even 03 models)as you can no longer buy new ones. A quick look through the subaru dealer web site shows that similar vehicles are c. 6k.Depending on miles I'd put your 03 plate at below £4k, which makes the £1,500 seem strange.
Crazysteve said:
5paul5 said:
I may be missing something here but what the hell can impact with an internal engine pipe ? Only another part of the engine internals surely.
Hi, according to a post taken from SubaruForester.org It's not the pipe being hit by internal parts as this is well clear, it is bolted on the underside of the engine.
The fault is in the design and the fact that it is brazed on it's joints rather that tig welded etc.
Exract taken from Subaruforester.org:
For those of you not familiar here's what causes the failure...
The state of modification has nothing to do with the pickup failures, at least I have no correlation based on the data I've collected. Here's a copy/paste from another thread I made a while back explaining the failures...
So on to the factory pickups… They are brazed assemblies (it's kind of like welding, but more like soldering with temperatures much lower than welding ~800 degrees. The braze is the gold stuff you see between the parts, see pictures here). For the braze to properly hold the metal pieces together this stuff called 'flux' is put on the areas where the braze will be applied. The flux makes sure that when the parts are heated up that the braze flows between and sticks to the metal parts properly. When operators, or machines, puts the flux on these parts to get them ready for brazing, the flux must AT LEAST cover the area that needs to be brazed together. So the application of the flux is typically quite liberal and sloppy.
This application of flux and brazing seems to be done properly because I've never seen a braze joint failure. The problem is that the flux SHOULD be cleaned from the parts after the brazing process has been completed. We'll come back to this in a second.
Now the tube, where the failures occur, is a simple thin (~.030") wall seam welded tube. A seam welded tube is basically a long skinny flat piece of metal that gets rolled into a tube and then welded where the ends meet. If you look at some of the pics in my link above you'll see a distinct line that runs the length of the tube. That's the weld. Welded tubing has its downside. While cheap, the weld can be the achilies heal if not done properly. When done properly a weld in low carbon steel will be harder, stronger and more brittle. In this situation it's a rougher surface too (when you look under a microscope, compared to the non-welded areas). Anytime there is an irregularity on the surface of a material with lumps, bumps, pits, etc., it creates a weakness.
OK so let’s get back to the braze… When not removed from certain process affected areas, specifically a hardened brittle weld, it will get into any micro pock mark or pit when it's applied and heated and a chemical reaction will occur. The flux reacts with the specific metal condition of the weld (harder and pits, etc..) and will etch into the pits making them deeper... and can also make the metal more brittle too. This is what ends up weakening the tube to the point of crack formation. And the fact that it's bolted to the bottom of an engine and exposed to vibrations doesn't help either.
Speaking to vibrations and engines modified with bolt-ons. Engine vibration is not as much a contributing factor as you might initially think for a few reasons. The rotating assemblies are fairly well balanced and harmonically dampened. The oil pickup is submerged in oil, and filled with oil. This dampens the engine vibrations tremendously at the pickup. Some assume the pickup is just swinging around from the engine vibrations, but forget that the pickup is also in oil and full of oil. Now where high frequency vibrations do come from is the oil pump. Typically called ‘high frequency pressure pulsation’, these lower amplitude pulses can have a more pronounced affect because of harmonics that can build in the pickup assembly, possibly where a critical frequency may be being reached at certain RPMs (speed of the oil pump).
So essentially, based on what I have experienced and learned, the OEM oil pickup failures are initiated from a chemical reaction from braze flux on the weld seam and these weakened areas are taken advantage of by oil pump induced high frequency vibrations.
And in the post above ^ there are a bunch more pictures since then.
Hi that is what there intial response was to me, when i took it to Europa At sheffield he said he had seen a couple of cases.
But when i spoke to Subaru UK they had not heard of this happening before, and did ask if it had been offroaded, modified etc.
Sump pan does not have a scratch on it.
Subaru do not seem to concerned that if your car is more than 3 years old or done 60k, it's sell by date has been exceeded and your on your own.
Sorry for the rant but what could be and should be a very good car is turning out to be nightmare.
But when i spoke to Subaru UK they had not heard of this happening before, and did ask if it had been offroaded, modified etc.
Sump pan does not have a scratch on it.
Subaru do not seem to concerned that if your car is more than 3 years old or done 60k, it's sell by date has been exceeded and your on your own.
Sorry for the rant but what could be and should be a very good car is turning out to be nightmare.
I still have a 1999 sturbo and the wife has a 2005 xten.
The xten is noticeably quicker and contrary to what has been written no worse on petrol. The leather is nice, the satnav adequate and the momo steering wheel buttons a good feature.
She moved from a 182cup to the foz three years ago, so the only mods we needed were some 17in rims and FSTI suspension to sharpen the handling.
We did look at FSTI's but if we wanted sports seats and sports looks, we would have bought another impreza Sti. You cab park a foz anywhere and not worry too much.
The xten is noticeably quicker and contrary to what has been written no worse on petrol. The leather is nice, the satnav adequate and the momo steering wheel buttons a good feature.
She moved from a 182cup to the foz three years ago, so the only mods we needed were some 17in rims and FSTI suspension to sharpen the handling.
We did look at FSTI's but if we wanted sports seats and sports looks, we would have bought another impreza Sti. You cab park a foz anywhere and not worry too much.
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