Where's me plugs gone?!! 325TDS that is
Discussion
Hi All,
I've been having cold start problems with the oil burner and the concensus is it's the glow plugs. I had my first nosey under the engine cover today and I'm not too happy with my findings
Where the hell are they?!!!
I suspect I've found them, nicely buried under the inlet plenum which is just typical but would appreciate some expert input before I break things.
Now then, removing the inlet plenum. Looks quite straight forward to me. Undo the 4 bolts on the shiny thing - circled red - and then the bolts that clamp the ends of the runners to the head. Question, is there any coolant passages around there that won't like being disturbed?
While we have a pic up, any ideas about the nice oily mess circled in blue?
Also where is the plug relay? I might as well check that while I'm in there. Here's the main fuse/relay box. Relays don't appear to be listed though, handy that!
Cheers,
Rob
I've been having cold start problems with the oil burner and the concensus is it's the glow plugs. I had my first nosey under the engine cover today and I'm not too happy with my findings
Where the hell are they?!!!
I suspect I've found them, nicely buried under the inlet plenum which is just typical but would appreciate some expert input before I break things.
Now then, removing the inlet plenum. Looks quite straight forward to me. Undo the 4 bolts on the shiny thing - circled red - and then the bolts that clamp the ends of the runners to the head. Question, is there any coolant passages around there that won't like being disturbed?
While we have a pic up, any ideas about the nice oily mess circled in blue?
Also where is the plug relay? I might as well check that while I'm in there. Here's the main fuse/relay box. Relays don't appear to be listed though, handy that!
Cheers,
Rob
A ha, not an easy job!!
I had the Omega with the same engine, right pain in the arse job took me about 5 hours & I'm handy with a spanner. Some of the manifold bolts are impossible to get on off.
My experience would suggest that it's not these at all as I found out.
Try lack of fuel, dodgy fuel pump, or blocked filter, easy enough to do the fuel filter.
Does it start the same without using the glow plugs?
I had the Omega with the same engine, right pain in the arse job took me about 5 hours & I'm handy with a spanner. Some of the manifold bolts are impossible to get on off.
My experience would suggest that it's not these at all as I found out.
Try lack of fuel, dodgy fuel pump, or blocked filter, easy enough to do the fuel filter.
Does it start the same without using the glow plugs?
How do you start without the glow plugs?
Problem I've been having is it's taking 3,4,5 attempts to start up when the engine's cold. As in turn ignition on, wait for glow plug light to go out and turn key to crank the engine. Once the engine has been running and it's hot it starts with no problem at all. The problem has only been apparent since last Saturday, prior to that it's always started on first attempt no problem. Car had a full inspection 2 service last month btw.
5 hours sounds depressing, then again I have changed an exhaust manifold on an Elise so I must be masochistic enough to attempt this
Cheers,
Rob
Problem I've been having is it's taking 3,4,5 attempts to start up when the engine's cold. As in turn ignition on, wait for glow plug light to go out and turn key to crank the engine. Once the engine has been running and it's hot it starts with no problem at all. The problem has only been apparent since last Saturday, prior to that it's always started on first attempt no problem. Car had a full inspection 2 service last month btw.
5 hours sounds depressing, then again I have changed an exhaust manifold on an Elise so I must be masochistic enough to attempt this
Cheers,
Rob
Providing the glow plugs don't pull the threads out of the cylinder head during removal, it's not that bad a job really.
the shiney thing shouldn't have any coolant in it, the EGR pipe on to it can be a bit fiddly to restart the bolts in though.
oily mark in the circle.......looks like oil misting thats been covered with crud, suspect the vacuum pump seal or the rocker cover seal in that area.
where abouts in cheshire are you.....i'm Chester.
Re the starting, does the car smoke when it's cold cranking?, if so grey smoke while cranking is usually a good sign of lack of preheat or retarded timing.
no smoke, and you'll need to investigate a fuel drain back.
the shiney thing shouldn't have any coolant in it, the EGR pipe on to it can be a bit fiddly to restart the bolts in though.
oily mark in the circle.......looks like oil misting thats been covered with crud, suspect the vacuum pump seal or the rocker cover seal in that area.
where abouts in cheshire are you.....i'm Chester.
Re the starting, does the car smoke when it's cold cranking?, if so grey smoke while cranking is usually a good sign of lack of preheat or retarded timing.
no smoke, and you'll need to investigate a fuel drain back.
I'm over in Macclesfield alas!
Yes the car does smoke like a devil when it first starts up but soon clears off once under way.
I take it the EGR pipe is the allot pipe coming out of the left side of the shiny thing? Are there any coolant paths where the inlet runners mate with the cylinder head? I'm still assuming that the plugs are underneath the inlet manifold and are not the things thatsit between each inlet runner end - you can just make out one in the blue oval.
I'll clean up the oil mess and keep my eye on it, see if I can get a clearer idea of where it's coming from.
Cheers,
Rob
Yes the car does smoke like a devil when it first starts up but soon clears off once under way.
I take it the EGR pipe is the allot pipe coming out of the left side of the shiny thing? Are there any coolant paths where the inlet runners mate with the cylinder head? I'm still assuming that the plugs are underneath the inlet manifold and are not the things thatsit between each inlet runner end - you can just make out one in the blue oval.
I'll clean up the oil mess and keep my eye on it, see if I can get a clearer idea of where it's coming from.
Cheers,
Rob
The things you see between the manifold runners are the diesel injectors with their steel high pressure pipes and fibre coated rubber leak off pipes. NO need to touch these
The glow plugs are much smaller and are connected by a thick gauge cable,
edited to add
there is NO coolant within the manifold runners or the plenum area from memory.
Yup, the bright STEEL pipe to the left of the shiny thing is the EXHAUST GAS RECIRCULATION pipe.
>> Edited by nighthawk on Thursday 3rd June 19:36
The glow plugs are much smaller and are connected by a thick gauge cable,
edited to add
there is NO coolant within the manifold runners or the plenum area from memory.
Yup, the bright STEEL pipe to the left of the shiny thing is the EXHAUST GAS RECIRCULATION pipe.
>> Edited by nighthawk on Thursday 3rd June 19:36
nighthawk said:
The things you see between the manifold runners are the diesel injectors with their steel high pressure pipes and fibre coated rubber leak off pipes. NO need to touch these
The glow plugs are much smaller and are connected by a thick gauge cable,
edited to add
there is NO coolant within the manifold runners or the plenum area from memory.
Yup, the bright STEEL pipe to the left of the shiny thing is the EXHAUST GAS RECIRCULATION pipe.
>> Edited by nighthawk on Thursday 3rd June 19:36
Cool, thanks for all that, I suspected the easy to reach things were the injectors - typical. Sounds like some fun and games ahead with the socket set then
Also something else to throw in to the mix that occured to me yesterday is the weather. The car started fine yesterday all the other times that it's been having problems the weather has been very hot, yesterday of course was quite the opposite. Now this may all be co-incidence of course but is there an ambient temperature sensor anywhere that has an effect on fueling that might be knackered?
Cheers,
Rob
from memory.........and being as I'm an Oval man i may be a little wide of the mark.
The glow plug relay can sense the ambient air temp and thus adjusts pre and post heating phases accordingly, also the fuel filter head has a thermostatic valve in the return line.
might be a rain back issue, You have some clear fuel pipes upto the injection pump, if it's a drain back from the filter head to the tank, expect to see large amounts of air in the pipe to the pump.
the odd bubble is nothing to worry about.
still think it's more likely to be one or two bad plugs though myself.
i may be a little wide of the mark. The glow plug relay can sense the ambient air temp and thus adjusts pre and post heating phases accordingly, also the fuel filter head has a thermostatic valve in the return line.
might be a rain back issue, You have some clear fuel pipes upto the injection pump, if it's a drain back from the filter head to the tank, expect to see large amounts of air in the pipe to the pump.
the odd bubble is nothing to worry about.
still think it's more likely to be one or two bad plugs though myself.
Yep I'm with you on the plugs. The car was grumbly starting up today so I guess my weather related idea was just a co-incidence.
Also got a rocker cover gasket on order so I'll see if I can sort out that oily mess as well.
Thanks for all help on this Brian, much appreciated!
Cheers,
Rob
Also got a rocker cover gasket on order so I'll see if I can sort out that oily mess as well.
Thanks for all help on this Brian, much appreciated!
Cheers,
Rob
Burger!
Well from that you may guess that things still aren't right. I went through the pleasure of swapping the plugs, which to be honest wasn't too bad a job just very fiddly once you're at the plugs and there's a couple of real sod nuts to get of at the back end of the inlet manifold. Anyway All the old plugs came out easy enough to reveal they were in pretty good nick, just a light coating of soot that was easily rubbed off with some kitchen paper. Hmmmmm! I swapped them all out anyway - clearly I have masochistic tendancies. Startup is still a bit hit and miss though, one plus point is the exhaust wasn't smoky.
Looking in the inlet runners they were all coated with oily soot, probably not too surprising for an 87k engine but maybe the fueling's slightly off all over and running too rich? Not too sure really as I'm not that clued up on diesels. Pretty good excuse to get it remapped though
I also swapped the rocker cover gasket while I had the tools out. All in, both jobs took me around 3 hours. If I could've figured out how to get the box of wiring, at the top of the bulkhead, completely out of the way it would've been a bit easier to strip the large parts off.
Think it's time to hand over to a specialist - curses!
Cheers,
Rob
Well from that you may guess that things still aren't right. I went through the pleasure of swapping the plugs, which to be honest wasn't too bad a job just very fiddly once you're at the plugs and there's a couple of real sod nuts to get of at the back end of the inlet manifold. Anyway All the old plugs came out easy enough to reveal they were in pretty good nick, just a light coating of soot that was easily rubbed off with some kitchen paper. Hmmmmm! I swapped them all out anyway - clearly I have masochistic tendancies. Startup is still a bit hit and miss though, one plus point is the exhaust wasn't smoky.
Looking in the inlet runners they were all coated with oily soot, probably not too surprising for an 87k engine but maybe the fueling's slightly off all over and running too rich? Not too sure really as I'm not that clued up on diesels. Pretty good excuse to get it remapped though
I also swapped the rocker cover gasket while I had the tools out. All in, both jobs took me around 3 hours. If I could've figured out how to get the box of wiring, at the top of the bulkhead, completely out of the way it would've been a bit easier to strip the large parts off.
Think it's time to hand over to a specialist - curses!
Cheers,
Rob
Whoooooooooooa
Clear your mind grasshopper
The presence of the black oily carbon type deposits IS NOT a symptom of overfueling on a diesel.
AS you may know, the fuel is injected into the combustion chamber not the inlet manifold.
the crud you've come across is the by product of lentilist car haters who want oil burners to be a s clean as possible!
It's the misture of oily crank case gasses and the recirculated exhaust gas which clings to the inlet tract, so unless the car is belching blue smoke, worry not.
Did you test any of the plugs?
I always stick them across the battery to see how quick they get to cherry red, any more than 15secs and you might as well scrap it. but be warned, it needs a heavy gauge cable to connect to the pos stud and they get VERY VERY hot as you will imagine, but the little sods tend to stay hot for a very long time too!
Now we know we have a good base to start on, we can continue. The grey smoke has cleared now because of the increased combustion chamber temps at start up.
if the starting is difficult (as in 2 goes of the heaters in +0° conditions) I would suggest we move on to
A;
ensuring a good supply of fuel with NO air in the system, so make sure all pipe connections are secure and the pipes have not chaffed anywhere. a new filter element can be benificial too.
B;
If we still have issues, have the injectors tested. you say it's done 87k, the spray pattern might be going off due to wear in the injectors.
diesel injectors will suffer in the same way as petrol injectors, poor spray pattern = poor atomisation which results in poor combustion and so on.
Did you find the heater plug relay?
if so, did you bridge it out ad check resistance across the main circuit?
reduced current from a relay with high resistance contacts will reduce the heat the plugs generate.
The search for fast starting continues....................
Can you tell I love playin with oil burners?
edited to add some missing letters from a few words .
>> Edited by nighthawk on Saturday 5th June 16:43
Clear your mind grasshopper
The presence of the black oily carbon type deposits IS NOT a symptom of overfueling on a diesel.
AS you may know, the fuel is injected into the combustion chamber not the inlet manifold.
the crud you've come across is the by product of lentilist car haters who want oil burners to be a s clean as possible!
It's the misture of oily crank case gasses and the recirculated exhaust gas which clings to the inlet tract, so unless the car is belching blue smoke, worry not.
Did you test any of the plugs?
I always stick them across the battery to see how quick they get to cherry red, any more than 15secs and you might as well scrap it. but be warned, it needs a heavy gauge cable to connect to the pos stud and they get VERY VERY hot as you will imagine, but the little sods tend to stay hot for a very long time too!
Now we know we have a good base to start on, we can continue. The grey smoke has cleared now because of the increased combustion chamber temps at start up.
if the starting is difficult (as in 2 goes of the heaters in +0° conditions) I would suggest we move on to
A;
ensuring a good supply of fuel with NO air in the system, so make sure all pipe connections are secure and the pipes have not chaffed anywhere. a new filter element can be benificial too.
B;
If we still have issues, have the injectors tested. you say it's done 87k, the spray pattern might be going off due to wear in the injectors.
diesel injectors will suffer in the same way as petrol injectors, poor spray pattern = poor atomisation which results in poor combustion and so on.
Did you find the heater plug relay?
if so, did you bridge it out ad check resistance across the main circuit?
reduced current from a relay with high resistance contacts will reduce the heat the plugs generate.
The search for fast starting continues....................
Can you tell I love playin with oil burners?
edited to add some missing letters from a few words .
>> Edited by nighthawk on Saturday 5th June 16:43
Damn those lentalists!!! I want a nice clean engine and black smoke belching out the back!! It's my right!! I'm going to take this to the European Court of Anti-lentalist Rights!!
Anyway, no I didn't test anything as I'm damned if I can find my multimeter at the moment as I'm in the middle of moving house. I suspect I shall have to pass this one over to someone with a bit more of a clue and time for that matter, especially if we have to start testing injectors - joy
Cheers,
Rob
Anyway, no I didn't test anything as I'm damned if I can find my multimeter at the moment as I'm in the middle of moving house. I suspect I shall have to pass this one over to someone with a bit more of a clue and time for that matter, especially if we have to start testing injectors - joy
Cheers,
Rob
hehehehe
i'd just see how it goes for a few weeks now
Maybe your being a little critical of it after it's previous performance.
A multimeter
If it makes a BIG spark when touched across the battery......it's OK
on the injector front, loads of places that can overhaul or supply reco bosch injectors for your Panzerwagon.
i'd just see how it goes for a few weeks now
Maybe your being a little critical of it after it's previous performance.
A multimeter
If it makes a BIG spark when touched across the battery......it's OK
on the injector front, loads of places that can overhaul or supply reco bosch injectors for your Panzerwagon.
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