Newby advice please - Business based

[mgmrw2003]

Just looking for a bit of advice from those in the know, as to enable me to assist the OH with her career.

She's a 23year old postgrad, with a degree (2:1 - just missed a 1st) in Photography (art based) and has previous experience with big media companies doing product promo work, as well as wedding photographer, and arts based photography.

Currently she works 4days a week for a certain photo developing chain (who also cut keys and repair shoes) and hates it, due to the sould destroying nature of the work, and minimum wage despite being assistant manager and being expected to be "On call" for when the store gets broken into (monthly. Last time, set fire).

She's also studing for an MA in Photography (arts based, small element of video), and ultimately would like to go into teaching as she gets a real kick out of the debating and encouraging side of it.


In the short term she has been debating quitting the pittance paying chain store, and going solo doing weddings and portraits, BUT needs to buy back some of the gear that she sold when skint to pay for her final year of uni.

She currently has 2x decent Digital SLRs, a host of old school 70s and 80s SLRs and a basic medium format camera.

In essence, I am wondering what sort of list of stuff she would need to go into solo work? AND how much this would cost? As I am looking to help her out, and would like an idea of what we'd be spending.

Also, as she is shocking with paperwork (these creative types eh?) she would rely on me to basically do "book-keeping", would there be much involved in this?

Lastly, with little in the way of local reputation, could she feasibly make the same money as she earns now (14k on a good year)?


Thanks in advance, and sorry for the bible length essay

[Simpo Two]

mgmrw2003 said:

She currently has 2x decent Digital SLRs, a host of old school 70s and 80s SLRs and a basic medium format camera. In essence, I am wondering what sort of list of stuff she would need to go into solo work?

With respect, with that background, shouldn't she know what she wants? The list for weddings will be very different for the list for studios, for example.

[mgmrw2003]

Simpo Two said:

With respect, with that background, shouldn't she know what she wants? The list for weddings will be very different for the list for studios, for example.

She does, but she wont tell me, as she's stubborn and wont let me help financially.

So I wanted an idea of what money we're talking....... As currently all I get is

"oh doesn't matter, can't afford it anyway..."

since her job pays bugger all. But Im selling 1 of the 3 cars, was going to use some of that to help her

[andy-xr]

There's every chance that whatever you put into this you'll never see again. If you want to do it, spend it on marketing and other associated costs, maybe hire of space. Spending it on kit from the sounds of it will just get better kit, there's nowt wrong with the stuff she has from the sounds of it

Tuition might well come into it, but I think the need to drum up local business would be better options

[mgmrw2003]

andy-xr said:

There's every chance that whatever you put into this you'll never see again. If you want to do it, spend it on marketing and other associated costs, maybe hire of space. Spending it on kit from the sounds of it will just get better kit, there's nowt wrong with the stuff she has from the sounds of it

Tuition might well come into it, but I think the need to drum up local business would be better options

Thanks.

Previously she's mentioned that she had; "lighting" and "lenses" but had to sell them. That was what confused me.

Guess in essence, Im just looking for ways to help her get started. She has the talent, and takes bloody fantastic pictures..... BUT spending her days in pink shirt selling self service prints is killing her esteem and effort. So was looking for ways to motivate her, and help with the risk element.

Round here people are paying between £1750 and £3500 for a wedding snapper...... She'd be making goo money charging £750. She's got a MACbook and the photosoftware for studies, and can use it well. So could do all the associated cards etc people want.

Guess I was basically wondering: 1) what sort of costs lenses and lighting attract, and 2) how I can help her with the business side

Her talent and enthusiasm is one of the things I love about her most, and its sad watching it being beaten slowly out of her

[andy-xr]

If you want a shopping list to dig around quietly when she's not looking, have a look at this. Some of it wont be needed, some of it you'll be able to get other brands, some of it will be overkill, but might give you something to bring up in conversation

1) Pair of studio lights, with battery pack for location shooting: http://www.warehouseexpress.com/buy-bowens-gemini-...
2) Hi-key backdrop: http://www.warehouseexpress.com/buy-lastolite-hili...
3) Lights for Lastolite backdrop: http://www.warehouseexpress.com/buy-bowens-400-400...
4) A 70-200 lens: http://www.warehouseexpress.com/search/?q=70-200
5) A 24-70 lens: http://www.warehouseexpress.com/search/?q=24-70
6) Accounting software: http://quickbooks.intuit.co.uk/
7) Photoshop, if she's planning on paying for it: http://www.warehouseexpress.com/buy-adobe-photosho...
8) Speedlight or two: http://www.warehouseexpress.com/flashguns/b3105

I still think gear shouldn't be the first thing to throw money at tbh, spend it on market research (those wedding prices seem high in some cases) and working out where the money is

[mgmrw2003]

andy-xr said:

If you want a shopping list to dig around quietly when she's not looking, have a look at this. Some of it wont be needed, some of it you'll be able to get other brands, some of it will be overkill, but might give you something to bring up in conversation

1) Pair of studio lights, with battery pack for location shooting: http://www.warehouseexpress.com/buy-bowens-gemini-...
2) Hi-key backdrop: http://www.warehouseexpress.com/buy-lastolite-hili...
3) Lights for Lastolite backdrop: http://www.warehouseexpress.com/buy-bowens-400-400...
4) A 70-200 lens: http://www.warehouseexpress.com/search/?q=70-200
5) A 24-70 lens: http://www.warehouseexpress.com/search/?q=24-70
6) Accounting software: http://quickbooks.intuit.co.uk/
7) Photoshop, if she's planning on paying for it: http://www.warehouseexpress.com/buy-adobe-photosho...
8) Speedlight or two: http://www.warehouseexpress.com/flashguns/b3105

I still think gear shouldn't be the first thing to throw money at tbh, spend it on market research (those wedding prices seem high in some cases) and working out where the money is

Thankyou very much for the time taken to help. I get your point... believe it or not, I knowo f 5 couples in the last 9months that have paid over 2k for wedding pics. 2 of which were so crap the OH is redoing them for them staged.

I guess Im trying to work out what sort of financial help ill be offering before I get her hopes up by offering if that makes sense?

[Simpo Two]

I did my first wedding with a Nikon D70, 18-70mm and 70-300mm lenses - because that's what I had anyway. The only thing I bought specially in anticipation was a big Speedlight.

The money from the first wedding helped pay for 70-200 f2.8 because the 70-300 was slow, screw-drive and useless in low light.

The money from the next two weddings helped pay for a 17-55mm f2.8 because the 18-70 wasn't fast enough.

The money from the next two weddings paid for a Nikon D200 because the D70 was limiting.

Later on I got a 10-20mm, 50mm f1.4, back-up D200 and back-up Speedlight.

So it doesn't need massive investment, just re-invest as you go.

[mgmrw2003]

sounds a good strategy.

Shall do some research.

Once again, thanks for the advice..... Really want to help her get out of the rut she's in

[Nick Grant]

One thing to bear in mind with massively undercutting the competition is that she will be massively undercutting any future earnings potential. She should charge fairly.

As already stated the battle is not being a good photographer it's becoming a good business person, that's where you could help. You could even act as her manager/agent and teach her how to run a business and then hand it over when she is confident to do it herself.

[scdan4]

if she can get friendly with some local florists who do wedding flowers that could help her find customers.

the staged wedding shots from her friends could also be highly useful in setting up some marketing / portfolio gubbins.

[bramley]

scdan4 said:

if she can get friendly with some local florists who do wedding flowers that could help her find customers.

Very unlikely in my experience. By the time a couple get serious about flowers, they've already booked a photographer. Venues, dress shops and jewellers offer the greatest potential return to a wedding photographer.

[ian in lancs]

Nick Grant said:

One thing to bear in mind with massively undercutting the competition is that she will be massively undercutting any future earnings potential. She should charge fairly.

As already stated the battle is not being a good photographer it's becoming a good business person, that's where you could help. You could even act as her manager/agent and teach her how to run a business and then hand it over when she is confident to do it herself.

From my perspective as a semi-pro photographer the above kit advice is sound and comes from people with experience and credibility. By semi-pro I mean I have a day job and in my spare time I get paid for people photography - from fashion through to portraiture but don't 'do weddings'.

Having an MBA I cannot agree more with what Nick has said about the business side. With her background she should be able to command a premium with creative portraiture; product differentiation. Going down the lowest/lower cost route isn't usually a wise way to go; cost differentiation. Assuming She's very capable from her academic background and her current employ has stuffed her morale and self confidence I'd be encouraging her to pick up where the dissertation/degree portfolio got to get into a studio to get some creative portraiture done showing her technical and artistic skills in camera and post processing to pull a portfolio together. It's possible to borrow, ebay or hire wedding dresses for the purpose too.

There's a couple of good apps WP Toolkit and TheWeddingPhotographer that are inspiring and she could do second shooter on a couple of weddings to get settled in. Weddings though demand good interpersonal skills how is she 'directing' - a necessary skill in a studio let alone in a wedding context. The middle ground is taking the Bride & Groom aside and essentially do a creative portrait session then back to the crowd for the formal family shots.

In New Zealand for a wedding recently opened my eyes. The Photographers weren't what we seem to have locally (!!!) but young, engaging, dynamic, arty, decepively casual etc. I was fascinated with the way they worked. It was more akin to a studio shoot than a fusty formulaic wedding shoot. I felt an immeadiate connection with them and happily from both perspectives fitted right in! I know the Bride & Groom and family well so I was able to engage them for candid / reportage style shots. The work the pro's produced was first class, very creative in style and presentation. They rightfully demand a premium, have a 'waiting list' and get wedding commissions world wide. They turn down more work than they choose to do and thereby increase demand for an exclusive service.


ETA http://www.amazon.co.uk/Wedding-Photographers-Plan...

Edited by ian in lancs on Friday 24th June 18:35

[mgmrw2003]

Thanks for all the advie. In response to the three main points raised I shall answer as best as I can:

1) morale stuffed by current employer - absolutely. The shop had 4 people working in it a year ago, due to circumstance and penny pinching is now her solo, and 1x p/t girl 12hours a week (6days opening, it goes far). She hates it, and the job is st if honest.

2) business sense - she has not a right lot. So this is where my logical way of thinking (and she thinks BSc in management, MSc in marketing) should come to play. As I've previously stated, she's creative skilled, but cost control and so on, not so great.

3) people and organisational skills for a wedding - seen her in action at various group photography events. Impressed. She managed to be firm, whilst maintaining good rapor. She did a years worth of costs paid only, as a wedding photographers assistant as a link to her uni course.

Once again, thanks for all the advice.

[Simpo Two]

mgmrw2003 said:

She managed to be firm, whilst maintaining good rapor.

Ah well that's going to be a problem. What she needs is 'rapport'

But that is encouraging. Wedding photography needs a strange mix of skills; some come naturally, others need work. An appropriate level of kit to cope with the challenges, personal organisation, social skills and business skills (marketing/sales/negotiation/book-keeping).

[mgmrw2003]

Simpo Two said:

Ah well that's going to be a problem. What she needs is 'rapport'

But that is encouraging. Wedding photography needs a strange mix of skills; some come naturally, others need work. An appropriate level of kit to cope with the challenges, personal organisation, social skills and business skills (marketing/sales/negotiation/book-keeping).

Hey, I only spent 17years in education, give me time to catch up

social, creativity, etc she has....... selling her self as a brand/image/idea, and book-keeping, guess where I come in?