Tips for a hard gainer please

[Big E 118]

Been reading Health Matters for a while and there seems to be some pretty clued up guys on here so looking for a bit of advice.

I've been hitting the weights in the gym for about a year now and although I've had some OK gains I've realised that I'm a "hard gainer", I'm just not filling out as quickly as my friends/training partners.

I'm 6'2 and 17 stone (about 1/2 a stone is podge around my waist!) but to me I still don't look "big".

I've got a fairly large frame and am not filling it like I would like.

I hit the gym 5 days a week, breaking each day into body parts: Chest/Bi's, Shoulders/tri's, Back/legs etc, and lifting what I consider to be fair weights, 90-100kg's bench, 90+deads, 90+ squats, 50+shoulder press etc (3 sets of 10 reps then 4th set to failure) and always trying to exceed my previous best.

I eat well and take protein (maximuscle cyclone) twice daily.

Any ideas/pointers to shock my body into realising gains quicker? Thanks for any advice.

forgot to add, I'm 36

Edited by Big E 118 on Tuesday 21st June 22:05

[Ordinary_Chap]

95% of hard gainers, aren't actually hard gainers per se, they are often folk who don't have either training or their diet nailed.

Do you know how many calories you're eating per day? What do those calories consist of?

[Animal]

You don't say how old you are, but:

1) You're not a hard gainer! If you were 6'2" and 11 stone you might be.
2) Take a week off. You'll be so bored that when you do go back you'll be properly fired up.
3) Abbreviate your routine: chest/shoulders, back, legs. Three exercises per bodypart, no more than
one all-out set per exercise.
4) Protein? 1g per lb of bodyweight as a bare minimum? Half as much again to double in Carbs.

If you've been doing the same exercises for a while then why not make some changes - dips instead of bench press for example?

HTH

[Halb]

I tend to post this a lot...but it works and I like it.
5x5 start with that
http://www.deepsquatter.com/strength/archives/manr...

[Big E 118]

Not sure of calories.

Typical day would be:
Gym 6:30 - 8am then protein shake
9:30 am, cereal/yoghurt/milk
11 -snack- Nuts/seeds/dried fruit
1:30pm - sandwich, turkey or similar on brown / fruit
3:30pm - Protein shake
6:30pm - main meal, tuna or chicken or steak/brown rice or wholemeal pasta/veg
9pm - 1 slice brown toast with nutella

[Ordinary_Chap]

Big E 118 said:

Not sure of calories.

Typical day would be:
Gym 6:30 - 8am then protein shake
9:30 am, cereal/yoghurt/milk - swap for omlette, scrambled eggs, eggs on toast or similar
11 -snack- Nuts/seeds/dried fruit - swap for protein shake
1:30pm - sandwich, turkey or similar on brown / fruit - swap for high protein meal
3:30pm - Protein shake
6:30pm - main meal, tuna or chicken or steak/brown rice or wholemeal pasta/veg
9pm - 1 slice brown toast with nutella - swap for protein meal

That diet isn't good for someone trying to gain buddy. I've added some comments.

Also if you don't know how many calories you're eating you've got no chance really to manage you're diet.

Work out your BMR and then adjust according to bulking or cutting phase and massively up your protein count.

[Brother D]

You need to actually log your calories (all of them)...

But if that is really a typical day then it looks like you might be a little low on calorie intake, but I'm surprise you still have fat round your mid-section? - That is really difficult to deal with if you are trying to add mass, so it is even more important to monitor your calorie intake.

Getting cut is a balancing act of both cutting out fat and calories, both of which will in your case have the negative effect of reducing overall mass.

[Big E 118]

Thanks for the tips so far guys.

I do try and vary up my routine/exercises every 4 weeks or so.

As for more protein, yep you're probably right but I'm sitting at my desk for brekkie and lunch so do struggle with decent meals at those times. Will give it a go.

As for the workout link, looks interesting and will try and take some of that on board. Don't think I'll be loading on 325kgs onto the bar yet, that would tire me out just putting the weights on the bar!

[Ordinary_Chap]

Big E 118 said:

Thanks for the tips so far guys.

I do try and vary up my routine/exercises every 4 weeks or so.

As for more protein, yep you're probably right but I'm sitting at my desk for brekkie and lunch so do struggle with decent meals at those times. Will give it a go.

As for the workout link, looks interesting and will try and take some of that on board. Don't think I'll be loading on 325kgs onto the bar yet, that would tire me out just putting the weights on the bar!

I think you shouldn't vary your program often once every 6 months or so or less.

Can you tell us what exercises you do for each of those days?

[Big E 118]

Ordinary_Chap said:

I think you shouldn't vary your program often once every 6 months or so or less.

Can you tell us what exercises you do for each of those days?

Mon - 300 workout
Tue - Barbell bench, incline or decline bench, cable cross over, dumbell fly, dumbell pull over, machine fly, 2x bicep exercises, 3 x abs
Weds - Boxing or kettle bell workout, 3 x abs
Thurs - Shoulder press, behind neck barbell press, dumbell side raise, dumbell front raise, machine shoulder press, skull crusher, cable tricep pushdown, cable over head tri extension, dips, 3 x abs
Fri - deadlift, squats, bent over row, lat pulldown, behind neck pulldown, seated row, 2x bicep, 3x abs

[Ordinary_Chap]

Big E 118 said:

Ordinary_Chap said:

I think you shouldn't vary your program often once every 6 months or so or less.

Can you tell us what exercises you do for each of those days?

Mon - 300 workout
Tue - Barbell bench, incline or decline bench, cable cross over, dumbell fly, dumbell pull over, machine fly, 2x bicep exercises, 3 x abs
Weds - Boxing or kettle bell workout, 3 x abs
Thurs - Shoulder press, behind neck barbell press, dumbell side raise, dumbell front raise, machine shoulder press, skull crusher, cable tricep pushdown, cable over head tri extension, dips, 3 x abs
Fri - deadlift, squats, bent over row, lat pulldown, behind neck pulldown, seated row, 2x bicep, 3x abs

I'm not sure I'd recommend that to anyone training to gain muscle.

Have a look at the traditional programs over 3/4 days (see my thread for example) or alternatively look at the stronglift program Halb have suggested above, another good one.

If you're working hard there is no point working your biceps twice within 3 days for instance, they simply won't recover to grow. Doing abs nearly every day is entirely pointless if you want them to grow. They are muscles like any other and require time to recover if you want them to grow.

Also your program seems a little at odds with itself, if you're trying to gain you may want to dump the cardio at least temporarily and the kettle-bell and do core lifts.

[didelydoo]

There's no such thing as a 'hard gainer' IMO. And at 6'2" and 17 stone I don't think you'd fit the bill if there was

Eat alot and have a good routine and you'll grow- at 17 stone you'll have to up the calories alot to go up in weight I'd think.

[Big E 118]

Ordinary_Chap said:

I'm not sure I'd recommend that to anyone training to gain muscle.

Have a look at the traditional programs over 3/4 days (see my thread for example) or alternatively look at the stronglift program Halb have suggested above, another good one.

If you're working hard there is no point working your biceps twice within 3 days for instance, they simply won't recover to grow. Doing abs nearly every day is entirely pointless if you want them to grow. They are muscles like any other and require time to recover if you want them to grow.

Also your program seems a little at odds with itself, if you're trying to gain you may want to dump the cardio at least temporarily and the kettle-bell and do core lifts.

It was a personal trainer that gave me that workout, although I guess some are better that others...

I'll do a bit more research and look at the info you've suggested, thanks!

[Ordinary_Chap]

No offense but most personal trainers are quite clueless. There are good ones but there are more bad than good! I only really started to learn when I went to a meathead gym and got taken under the wing of a great bodybuilder. Muscle came quickly after that.

Here's a good site for help and advice;
www.testosteronemuscle.co.uk

[Lost_BMW]

Big E 118 said:

Mon - 300 workout
Tue - Barbell bench, incline or decline bench, cable cross over, dumbell fly, dumbell pull over, machine fly, 2x bicep exercises, 3 x abs
Weds - Boxing or kettle bell workout, 3 x abs
Thurs - Shoulder press, behind neck barbell press, dumbell side raise, dumbell front raise, machine shoulder press, skull crusher, cable tricep pushdown, cable over head tri extension, dips, 3 x abs
Fri - deadlift, squats, bent over row, lat pulldown, behind neck pulldown, seated row, 2x bicep, 3x abs

My tuppenceworth, fwiw.

As noted above some meals need shifting to higher protein ones, including one before sleep; a casein based protein shake or something like cottage cheese would be ideal.

You mentioned 3 sets of 10 then a 4th to failure. How hard/worthwhile are the earlier sets? You might be better working on increasing strength week by week using a carefully measured cycle like the 5x5 and Stronglifts others have mentioned.

But to me there are some things I just wouldn't dream of if trying to get bigger, especially that '300' workout - imho a pretty certain way for any relative newcomer to waste energy/workouts and compromise the rest and any gains they could give.

Plus 'cable crossovers'? Why!!! machine presses and front raises after pressing (and behind neck press is a renowned injury maker) already; ditto machine flyes. Or cable extensions after skull crushers. If you work hard, chase strength gains in the first couple of key (basic) exercises you shouldn't need the fripperies.

If there is such a thing as overtraining I reckon you are exploring it. Given you are boxing as well your shoulders must be getting a lot of volume in the week so I'd go for fewer sets of higher quality; actually not a bad principle all round.

[Halb]

I haven't done the 300 for a long time...wonder if my time could come down now
What time do you do it in OP?

[Big E 118]

Halb said:

I haven't done the 300 for a long time...wonder if my time could come down now
What time do you do it in OP?

Pretty poor actually as I'm a smoker (only at weekends, and I know...)

Usually about 25-27 minutes as I need to catch my breath every now and then. What was your PB Halb?

I've read on the internet (can't believe everything) claims of people doing it sub 14 mins!

On the subject of 300 and my OP, most of the advice above (which I have taken note of) says I'm over training, then you read about the guys training for the 300 movie and they were doing 4-6 hours per day. I guess they're taking on huge amounts of protein but how can they train to such intensity and still gain?

[Matt_N]

Big E 118 said:

Mon - 300 workout
Tue - Barbell bench, incline or decline bench, cable cross over, dumbell fly, dumbell pull over, machine fly, 2x bicep exercises, 3 x abs
Weds - Boxing or kettle bell workout, 3 x abs
Thurs - Shoulder press, behind neck barbell press, dumbell side raise, dumbell front raise, machine shoulder press, skull crusher, cable tricep pushdown, cable over head tri extension, dips, 3 x abs
Fri - deadlift, squats, bent over row, lat pulldown, behind neck pulldown, seated row, 2x bicep, 3x abs

I've never seen anyone recommend a chest / bi, shoulder / tri split.

A better suited split, imo would be:

back / bi
chest / tri
shoulders / legs

Also looks to me like too many exercises per body part per week, bi's do not need to be trained twice a week, same with abs 3 times.

Work each body part once a week with 3 exercises for the big muscle groups back, chest and legs and 2 for the bi and tri.

Bi and tri get worked hard during back and chest exercises anyway so there is a risk of overtraining if you go mad with the isolation exercises.

In regards to your diet, at 14 stone I was aiming for 3500-4000 cals a day with protein in grams to match my weight in lbs.

At 17 stone you need to eat a lot to gain!

I'm no expert and can only recommend what has worked for me but I suspect a combination of overtraining and under eating is resulting in you not seeing the gains you want.

[Animal]

Big E 118 said:

On the subject of 300 and my OP, most of the advice above (which I have taken note of) says I'm over training, then you read about the guys training for the 300 movie and they were doing 4-6 hours per day. I guess they're taking on huge amounts of protein but how can they train to such intensity and still gain?

The aim for those actors was to make them look rangy and lean (or the Hollywood equivalent thereof!) given that the real Spartans would have had a limited diet and would have been active all day every day. I suspect that a fair amount of artistic licence was used in claiming the amount of time spent working out. Then again, it's probably true that a fair proportion of the cast were not regulars to strength training, and also that the training team were given a strict deadline to adhere to - their training timetable would have been a short, sharp shock.

[Ordinary_Chap]

Animal said:

Big E 118 said:

On the subject of 300 and my OP, most of the advice above (which I have taken note of) says I'm over training, then you read about the guys training for the 300 movie and they were doing 4-6 hours per day. I guess they're taking on huge amounts of protein but how can they train to such intensity and still gain?

The aim for those actors was to make them look rangy and lean (or the Hollywood equivalent thereof!) given that the real Spartans would have had a limited diet and would have been active all day every day. I suspect that a fair amount of artistic licence was used in claiming the amount of time spent working out. Then again, it's probably true that a fair proportion of the cast were not regulars to strength training, and also that the training team were given a strict deadline to adhere to - their training timetable would have been a short, sharp shock.

Not to mention the massive drugs scandal around the actors been fed drugs to make them look better including clen, test etc.

And if that wasn't enough they touched up the actors bodies to make them look more ripped in the film.