When to ditch modern cars and just go classic?
Discussion
Recently I have been toying with the idea of a car change. I drive a little Fiesta ST and I really like it. It's very direct, simple and quick enough without being scary. There are a few things that annoy me though. Lack of decent engine sound, massive blind spots ahead of you when going around corners and the seating position is a little high. Ie it's not a sports car but a very well adapted shopping car. It's also not a beautiful car. I like a bit of attention but this seems almost invisible on the road. Overall though it's a great little car and one of my favorites. It's one of the few modern cars that feels really driving focussed.
But recently I have had an itch to change for something else. I was looking at i30Ns, Focus RSs and the Giulia Veloce. They are all impressive in their own way. The Giulia and i30N in particular and they are very quick. But in general they are in and around the same price ca. £30-35,000. I'd pay half and finance the rest. The usual modern story and in 3 years I'll be happy to have lost £10-12,000. They are impressive cars but I find you have to be going extremely fast to get a kick out of them. Dangerously fast to other road users I would say.
But then I got thinking...what do I actually use my car for? I'm not married yet, I've no kids, I have a commercial work vehicle, I live out the countryside with a garage and I already have a more modern spare car that I dearly love (a pretty sound 156 v6). Most of the drives I go for with my car are for fun and I could have taken another vehicle if I really wanted to.
A classic car restorer near me is in the process of doing up a 105 coupe. It's a complete nut and bolt restoration done to exacting detail with a number of engine, wheel, suspension and braking upgrades from Alfaholics. I had a look at the refurbished body yesterday and it's flawless. The quality of the workmanship is outstanding. It's such a beautiful shape. They have just finished a GTC with the 1600 engine and it's really special looking. It's probably going to be quite reliable too as there is so little in them to go wrong and it will be put back together properly but people who know what they are doing.
Anyway, the car is going to cost in and around £35,000 which is quite a lot of money for one of these, but in 3 years I think it's safe to say I'd be very, very disappointed with a £10,000 loss. In fact I'd be surprised if it hasn't gone up by that amount. Particularly when you see Alfaholics charging £40k for a bare shell.
Maybe I'm daydreaming as I tend to do a bit but I can't help but think that this would be a no brainier if it wasn't for the fact I know everyone around me will look at me like I'm insane if I do it. They just won't understand why I would want a classic car at my age.
So to sum up; I don't particularly get a thrill from modern cars, the 105 series is a beautiful car in every way and the Alfaholics parts mean it will be well able to keep up with modern machinery. Most cars are a dead loss in terms of finances but this is likely to appreciate. And at the end of the day...I don't really need a modern car.
Someone please...tell me this makes sense.
But recently I have had an itch to change for something else. I was looking at i30Ns, Focus RSs and the Giulia Veloce. They are all impressive in their own way. The Giulia and i30N in particular and they are very quick. But in general they are in and around the same price ca. £30-35,000. I'd pay half and finance the rest. The usual modern story and in 3 years I'll be happy to have lost £10-12,000. They are impressive cars but I find you have to be going extremely fast to get a kick out of them. Dangerously fast to other road users I would say.
But then I got thinking...what do I actually use my car for? I'm not married yet, I've no kids, I have a commercial work vehicle, I live out the countryside with a garage and I already have a more modern spare car that I dearly love (a pretty sound 156 v6). Most of the drives I go for with my car are for fun and I could have taken another vehicle if I really wanted to.
A classic car restorer near me is in the process of doing up a 105 coupe. It's a complete nut and bolt restoration done to exacting detail with a number of engine, wheel, suspension and braking upgrades from Alfaholics. I had a look at the refurbished body yesterday and it's flawless. The quality of the workmanship is outstanding. It's such a beautiful shape. They have just finished a GTC with the 1600 engine and it's really special looking. It's probably going to be quite reliable too as there is so little in them to go wrong and it will be put back together properly but people who know what they are doing.
Anyway, the car is going to cost in and around £35,000 which is quite a lot of money for one of these, but in 3 years I think it's safe to say I'd be very, very disappointed with a £10,000 loss. In fact I'd be surprised if it hasn't gone up by that amount. Particularly when you see Alfaholics charging £40k for a bare shell.
Maybe I'm daydreaming as I tend to do a bit but I can't help but think that this would be a no brainier if it wasn't for the fact I know everyone around me will look at me like I'm insane if I do it. They just won't understand why I would want a classic car at my age.
So to sum up; I don't particularly get a thrill from modern cars, the 105 series is a beautiful car in every way and the Alfaholics parts mean it will be well able to keep up with modern machinery. Most cars are a dead loss in terms of finances but this is likely to appreciate. And at the end of the day...I don't really need a modern car.
Someone please...tell me this makes sense.
Your man maths skills are working well.
However it's time that's the missing factor, my 45 year old mgb v8 is needing regular ferkling, both from regular interval maintenance activities as well as ongoing repairs as 45 year old parts need replacing. Yes after a full nut/bolt restoration you can eliminate much of the repair work, but hundreds/thousands of hours of work are needed first from you or paying someone - plenty of cash.... Tick. And double tick as hopefully the alfaholics selections include modern replacements, for original components, reducing the scheduled work...
Whichever way you go hours of working on cars rather than just driving will become a fact of life and give you a whole new fun aspect of car ownership... If you don't like spannering - I'd be tempted to think again...
A nice roomy dry and warm garage is a must - both for the car and your own health. It can get very cold in November spending a day doing jobs... You have a garage... Tick.
Personally I think it's worth it, though if it's a nice day and the mgb is half way through a job, I'm lucky enough to be able to take my s2k out for a run..
The classic car scene is another interesting benefit with shows/meets - but give you deadlines for completing jobs!
S.
However it's time that's the missing factor, my 45 year old mgb v8 is needing regular ferkling, both from regular interval maintenance activities as well as ongoing repairs as 45 year old parts need replacing. Yes after a full nut/bolt restoration you can eliminate much of the repair work, but hundreds/thousands of hours of work are needed first from you or paying someone - plenty of cash.... Tick. And double tick as hopefully the alfaholics selections include modern replacements, for original components, reducing the scheduled work...
Whichever way you go hours of working on cars rather than just driving will become a fact of life and give you a whole new fun aspect of car ownership... If you don't like spannering - I'd be tempted to think again...
A nice roomy dry and warm garage is a must - both for the car and your own health. It can get very cold in November spending a day doing jobs... You have a garage... Tick.
Personally I think it's worth it, though if it's a nice day and the mgb is half way through a job, I'm lucky enough to be able to take my s2k out for a run..
The classic car scene is another interesting benefit with shows/meets - but give you deadlines for completing jobs!
S.
Edited by 51mes on Sunday 16th December 09:38
I agree with the previous poster, you need to also enjoy working on Cars, or at least be prepared to pay for it. The 105’s are an excellent classic choice, but they still will go wrong, not always in ways you might expect. I nearly got locked out of mine today for instance. Got out for a call of nature, left the key in the ignition and the windows wound up, when I went back the door was locked, Catch is broken I think. Fortunately I had the missis in the car ( which is rare!) so she let me in. I’d still be there now waiting for recovery.
There is every chance you will become majorly hooked if you do buy one though, age isn’t an issue, plenty of young guys have classics.
There is every chance you will become majorly hooked if you do buy one though, age isn’t an issue, plenty of young guys have classics.
I love driving my Alfas - you can have a lot of fun at a much lower speed - better for the licence (and fines and points).
The 105 series is a great place to start. I personally believe that the Giulia (4-doors) is a better drive than the GT Junior/GTV - and they are much more affordable.
By the way, if it's a GTC (cabrio), and the OP hasn't made a typo, it's a steal at 35000
The 105 series is a great place to start. I personally believe that the Giulia (4-doors) is a better drive than the GT Junior/GTV - and they are much more affordable.
By the way, if it's a GTC (cabrio), and the OP hasn't made a typo, it's a steal at 35000
Google [bot] said:
From one daydreamer to another, your arguments make perfect sense.
However, bear in mind classics are a love/hate relationship, I’ve been there, and as you get older you become less tolerant, so it becomes more painful. And don’t underestimate running costs.
Same here - although not Italian, i love my '91 205 GTI and use it as often as possible throughout the year. Paintwork isn't bad for it's age but up until now it's pretty much 99% mechanically perfect due to how i've maintained it / modified it over my last 10 years of ownership. However although the bulk of those last 10 years have never had any nasty / horrific / costly works required, 3 months ago the car decided that it's time for the typical expensive classic car problems to arise (shrunken / leaking window seals, leaking sunroof frame seals, random cutting out not easily solved with the usual AFM, plugs, dizzy cap, etc).However, bear in mind classics are a love/hate relationship, I’ve been there, and as you get older you become less tolerant, so it becomes more painful. And don’t underestimate running costs.
As a result next year i've accepted that to keep the car reliable it will need to be converted to run modern standalone engine management but still on the standard engine, as it's the only way i can guarantee it could continue to be a turn key car, rather than one i dread jumping into and wondering whether it's going to break down.
Edited by AlexRS2782 on Monday 17th December 17:31
I've just made the leap of fulfilling a dream - and yes, it's an Alfa 105 coupe!
Firstly, it's not slow by any means. It has the 2 litre nord, which puts out 120bhp, with not a lot of weight to drag around - still surprises me how much grunt it has when you floor it. Keeping up with modern traffic (at sensible speeds at least) is no bother at all.
Secondly, as others have intimated, it is a love/hate relationship. You will have a permanent list of things it needs and as soon as you resolve one issue, another issue crops up. Sometimes it gets you down.
I don't have a much amount of experience with fixing things myself but I have started climbing the learning curve - there's a huge amount of support and resource out there. I fixed mine at the weekend and it was an immensely satisfying experience.
I'm totally smitten already - there's no other car in the world I would rather own than the one in my garage right now - who else can say that? I feel super lucky.
Lastly, if you are being offered a fully restored car complete with Alfaholics goodies for £35k, then bite his hand off!
I'm a little suspicious tbh, as that is well under market value. Remember a poorly restored car is a bigger headache to resolve than a shabby yet original one.
Best of luck if you go for it. Just keep your eyes wide open.
Firstly, it's not slow by any means. It has the 2 litre nord, which puts out 120bhp, with not a lot of weight to drag around - still surprises me how much grunt it has when you floor it. Keeping up with modern traffic (at sensible speeds at least) is no bother at all.
Secondly, as others have intimated, it is a love/hate relationship. You will have a permanent list of things it needs and as soon as you resolve one issue, another issue crops up. Sometimes it gets you down.
I don't have a much amount of experience with fixing things myself but I have started climbing the learning curve - there's a huge amount of support and resource out there. I fixed mine at the weekend and it was an immensely satisfying experience.
I'm totally smitten already - there's no other car in the world I would rather own than the one in my garage right now - who else can say that? I feel super lucky.
Lastly, if you are being offered a fully restored car complete with Alfaholics goodies for £35k, then bite his hand off!
I'm a little suspicious tbh, as that is well under market value. Remember a poorly restored car is a bigger headache to resolve than a shabby yet original one.
Best of luck if you go for it. Just keep your eyes wide open.
Just go in with your eyes open - a fully restored "nut and bolt" classic is nothing like a news modern car car and bits will still go wrong. I had a completely rebuilt - and I mean completely - seventies 911 that looked like it had just left the production line when finished. I used it fairly regularly - as was the plan - but over 2 years and fewer than 5000 miles I had all sorts of trouble, including serious, and eye waveringly expensive, gearbox and engine issues (despite £20k rebuild on both by supposed best in the business).
The 105's are great cars, i do have a 1965 Giulia 1600 Super for sale, these are probably the best driving models in the 105 series but i wont sell for less than 45k, its mint condition, few photos below, it does have some Alfaholics tweeks, have you thaught about a 4C, these are great cars, not a daily driver but i would say it ticks all your boxes, you certainly get noticed and a great sound, i love mine, this one seems to have all the right mods done and you should'nt loose money on it over time https://www.pistonheads.com/classifieds/used-cars/...
preA356 said:
The 105's are great cars, i do have a 1965 Giulia 1600 Super for sale, these are probably the best driving models in the 105 series but i wont sell for less than 45k, its mint condition, few photos below, it does have some Alfaholics tweeks, have you thaught about a 4C, these are great cars, not a daily driver but i would say it ticks all your boxes, you certainly get noticed and a great sound, i love mine, this one seems to have all the right mods done and you should'nt loose money on it over time https://www.pistonheads.com/classifieds/used-cars/...
Beautiful, although I don't know whether to be happy or depressed by your price expectations for the Giulia!Makes me wonder what my Alfa collection might be worth.....
there is a dealer selling a 64Ti for 50k, wrong colour but it is a RHD Ti. there is another 65 Super for 40k, i have been told by a dealer that mine is a better car than the 40k one so i think 45k is about right, my car is excellent condition and needs nothing. I agree its top money but if you want the best you have to pay for it, Alfaholics resto's are 100k plus
tom77 said:
I've just made the leap of fulfilling a dream - and yes, it's an Alfa 105 coupe!
Firstly, it's not slow by any means. It has the 2 litre nord, which puts out 120bhp, with not a lot of weight to drag around - still surprises me how much grunt it has when you floor it. Keeping up with modern traffic (at sensible speeds at least) is no bother at all.
Secondly, as others have intimated, it is a love/hate relationship. You will have a permanent list of things it needs and as soon as you resolve one issue, another issue crops up. Sometimes it gets you down.
I don't have a much amount of experience with fixing things myself but I have started climbing the learning curve - there's a huge amount of support and resource out there. I fixed mine at the weekend and it was an immensely satisfying experience.
I'm totally smitten already - there's no other car in the world I would rather own than the one in my garage right now - who else can say that? I feel super lucky.
Lastly, if you are being offered a fully restored car complete with Alfaholics goodies for £35k, then bite his hand off!
I'm a little suspicious tbh, as that is well under market value. Remember a poorly restored car is a bigger headache to resolve than a shabby yet original one.
Best of luck if you go for it. Just keep your eyes wide open.
Which model did you buy? Its actually almost £38k for the car. Firstly, it's not slow by any means. It has the 2 litre nord, which puts out 120bhp, with not a lot of weight to drag around - still surprises me how much grunt it has when you floor it. Keeping up with modern traffic (at sensible speeds at least) is no bother at all.
Secondly, as others have intimated, it is a love/hate relationship. You will have a permanent list of things it needs and as soon as you resolve one issue, another issue crops up. Sometimes it gets you down.
I don't have a much amount of experience with fixing things myself but I have started climbing the learning curve - there's a huge amount of support and resource out there. I fixed mine at the weekend and it was an immensely satisfying experience.
I'm totally smitten already - there's no other car in the world I would rather own than the one in my garage right now - who else can say that? I feel super lucky.
Lastly, if you are being offered a fully restored car complete with Alfaholics goodies for £35k, then bite his hand off!
I'm a little suspicious tbh, as that is well under market value. Remember a poorly restored car is a bigger headache to resolve than a shabby yet original one.
Best of luck if you go for it. Just keep your eyes wide open.
I think £35-40K is about right for 1750 GTVs. I was tempted to buy the car in unrefurbished condition from them a year ago and they were asking for £18,000 so they obviously got the car at a good price and have quite a bit of margin in it. They are a relatively small family run car restorer, mainly into Jaguars but they really know what they are doing. I've seen the car stripped down and had a look at all of the repairs. Really high quality workmanship on every aspect and I wouldn't be at all worried about quality. The repairs to the body work are outstanding and the paint job is as good as I've ever seen on a car (They charge £6,000 for a respray!). The engine detailing they did on the GTC was amazing too and this would be getting the same treatment. (He didnt tell me what that GTC sold for but I'm pretty certain it was well north of £90,000). That said I think it is good value at £38k.
I guess I am aware that it would be less reliable than a modern car but at the same time most of it should be fixable by the road side. The engine bay access on these is so good compared to my 156 I think I'd be relishing the thought of something going wrong on it
I'm still only in the daydreaming phase but I do think these are going to appreciate dramatically in the next 5 years. If I do a bit of sensible financial planning it could be a good decision. Glad to hear that the workings for my man maths is right so far anyway.
preA356 said:
there is a dealer selling a 64Ti for 50k, wrong colour but it is a RHD Ti. there is another 65 Super for 40k, i have been told by a dealer that mine is a better car than the 40k one so i think 45k is about right, my car is excellent condition and needs nothing. I agree its top money but if you want the best you have to pay for it, Alfaholics resto's are 100k plus
Looks a beauty. The Alfaholics restos are insane money. I guess they have positioned themselves well but they are clearly making massive margins on each car. That said it is a niche business so why not charge what you can get away with.I'll have to get mine revalued -
From the 105-series I have the following -
1300 Giulia
1600 Giulia Super Nuova
1600 GT Junior
1750 GTV
Spider S2 1600
Spider S4 2000
Berlina 2000
None of them are perfect - I don't have garage queens! The Berlina has an impressive rally history (and gets rallied regularly), as do the 1750 GTV and the 1600 Giulia (which has pretty much the whole Alfaholics catalogue underneath).
I've added it all up and I paid €48.800 for all the cars.
From the 105-series I have the following -
1300 Giulia
1600 Giulia Super Nuova
1600 GT Junior
1750 GTV
Spider S2 1600
Spider S4 2000
Berlina 2000
None of them are perfect - I don't have garage queens! The Berlina has an impressive rally history (and gets rallied regularly), as do the 1750 GTV and the 1600 Giulia (which has pretty much the whole Alfaholics catalogue underneath).
I've added it all up and I paid €48.800 for all the cars.
llcoolmac said:
The Alfaholics restos are insane money. I guess they have positioned themselves well but they are clearly making massive margins on each car. That said it is a niche business so why not charge what you can get away with.
Might surprise you to learn that they don't. The car building side of the business has been propped up by the parts sales for years. Yes, there's a profit on building and restoring the cars but it couldn't stand on its own as a business with the hours that go into them.
preA356 said:
there is a dealer selling a 64Ti for 50k, wrong colour but it is a RHD Ti. there is another 65 Super for 40k, i have been told by a dealer that mine is a better car than the 40k one so i think 45k is about right,.....
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