Mercedes Cosworth 190E
Discussion
Hi,
Know I've asked this before - but can anyone remind me..... do the rear seats fold on these? Looking for a fun/unusual daily driver big enough to carry a couple of mountain bike frames.
Any other info on them welcome - are parts still readily available? Are they especially expensive to maintain (notice they have self levelling suspension which sounds hi-tech and possibly troublesome!)
Chris.
Know I've asked this before - but can anyone remind me..... do the rear seats fold on these? Looking for a fun/unusual daily driver big enough to carry a couple of mountain bike frames.
Any other info on them welcome - are parts still readily available? Are they especially expensive to maintain (notice they have self levelling suspension which sounds hi-tech and possibly troublesome!)
Chris.
Ah we're back in Pentoman's territory, here!
The rear seats do not fold flat, as the fuel tank and firewall are immediately behind.
The Cosworth is more expensive than the "normal" 190's to run and maintain. Cosworth's were usually thrashed by their first couple of owners, so make sure you buy a decent example and you should have no problems. Whining diff will need a refurbishment/new part and the rear suspension should be good if properly maintained.
Any example you consider purchasing should ALWAYS have a Full Service History.
Parts availibility is excellent as Mercedes's main factory retain reconditioned/new parts for 190s. If you want to go cheaper, there are plenty of breaker's yards out there who will have spare parts.
Stick to Merc Specialists as these were complex cars for their time, so will need proper care. Main dealers will charge through the nose for labour.
So go out and buy one
Darren
The rear seats do not fold flat, as the fuel tank and firewall are immediately behind.
The Cosworth is more expensive than the "normal" 190's to run and maintain. Cosworth's were usually thrashed by their first couple of owners, so make sure you buy a decent example and you should have no problems. Whining diff will need a refurbishment/new part and the rear suspension should be good if properly maintained.
Any example you consider purchasing should ALWAYS have a Full Service History.
Parts availibility is excellent as Mercedes's main factory retain reconditioned/new parts for 190s. If you want to go cheaper, there are plenty of breaker's yards out there who will have spare parts.
Stick to Merc Specialists as these were complex cars for their time, so will need proper care. Main dealers will charge through the nose for labour.
So go out and buy one
Darren
Edited by iluvmercs on Friday 25th May 12:29
Problems on the 2.3-16
Rust areas: Under brake servo and battery, behind headlights, behind rear arch extensions, rear spring top mounts, bottom corners of rear screen.
Tech failures:
2.3 Engines have shim adjusted Valve followers/guides (as opposed to hydraulic on 2.5) - these must regularly checked and adjusted for clearance, otherwise the valves can burn up, and crown the pistons - either way it wrecks the engine.
2.3 Engines have single timing chain (duplex on 2.5) which can occasionally fail
Self Levelling Suspension - pressure spheres can fail, not cheap. Rear shocks are stunningly expensive - £252 each last time I bought some from M-B (4yrs ago)
Pre mid '86 LSD are preset tension - the clutch plates determine slip. Great system on a track car, crap on a road car as the clutches wear (all LSD do) but there's no spring to keep the slip tension on. This stops it being an LSD, and also increases wear rate. Lack of LSD has a profound effect on cars handling. All parts available from M-B however.
Fuel Pump Relay - can fail. Kills performance as the fuelling is governed by fuel pressure alone (it's a constant rate semi mechanical injection K-Jetronic - archaic, but unbreakable). Car still runs fine, and often misdiagnosed.
Exhaust Manifolds supposedly crack - RHD ones are achingly beautiful bespoke alloy items. Cost a fortune to replace.
Suspension - the handling is the sole reason for having a 2.3-16 Merc. It will need it's bushes replacing - the suspension system doesn't actually pivot anywhere - the arms flex on their bushes. There's a lot of rubber as there's a lot of arm (10 at the back alone). Change them all whatever the mileage - they all be perished to hell by now - the difference in handling is amazing.
Other than that, they're brilliant - just bring a big wallet. Make no mistake, they're 20yr old super saloons, and pretty bespoke ones at that. No cheaper to run than an M3 really.
All parts should be available over the counter at M-B except RHD exhaust manifolds - the company that made them are long since defunct. Most parts surprisingly cheap (rear shocks, manifold, and stop watch excluded)
Rust areas: Under brake servo and battery, behind headlights, behind rear arch extensions, rear spring top mounts, bottom corners of rear screen.
Tech failures:
2.3 Engines have shim adjusted Valve followers/guides (as opposed to hydraulic on 2.5) - these must regularly checked and adjusted for clearance, otherwise the valves can burn up, and crown the pistons - either way it wrecks the engine.
2.3 Engines have single timing chain (duplex on 2.5) which can occasionally fail
Self Levelling Suspension - pressure spheres can fail, not cheap. Rear shocks are stunningly expensive - £252 each last time I bought some from M-B (4yrs ago)
Pre mid '86 LSD are preset tension - the clutch plates determine slip. Great system on a track car, crap on a road car as the clutches wear (all LSD do) but there's no spring to keep the slip tension on. This stops it being an LSD, and also increases wear rate. Lack of LSD has a profound effect on cars handling. All parts available from M-B however.
Fuel Pump Relay - can fail. Kills performance as the fuelling is governed by fuel pressure alone (it's a constant rate semi mechanical injection K-Jetronic - archaic, but unbreakable). Car still runs fine, and often misdiagnosed.
Exhaust Manifolds supposedly crack - RHD ones are achingly beautiful bespoke alloy items. Cost a fortune to replace.
Suspension - the handling is the sole reason for having a 2.3-16 Merc. It will need it's bushes replacing - the suspension system doesn't actually pivot anywhere - the arms flex on their bushes. There's a lot of rubber as there's a lot of arm (10 at the back alone). Change them all whatever the mileage - they all be perished to hell by now - the difference in handling is amazing.
Other than that, they're brilliant - just bring a big wallet. Make no mistake, they're 20yr old super saloons, and pretty bespoke ones at that. No cheaper to run than an M3 really.
All parts should be available over the counter at M-B except RHD exhaust manifolds - the company that made them are long since defunct. Most parts surprisingly cheap (rear shocks, manifold, and stop watch excluded)
Interesting stuff Dunk! Some stuff I haven't heard before there I want to ask you about..
I've had a 2.5-16 for 20 months, and a C-reg 2.0 190E for 6 years. Although a surprising amount of the general public know what they are, garages do not seem to! If you have a garage who knows what a Mercedes Cosworth is, that's a great start.
In general, they are mercifully like any other '80s Mercedes. This means nice well damped handling, good ride, ability to do 200,000 miles happily, easy to work on, a huge steering wheel, reliable and so on.
Additionally it's very rapid when thrashed (but not great at low revs), and handles like no other "sporting" Mercedes with their heavy six- and eight- cylinders. The rarity, value, enthusiast appeal and positive attention it gets is a bonus.
However there's a few caveats due to it being a special model. Cosworth-specific parts (such as the exhaust manifold, ignition computer, and that lap timer) are expensive, but there are reasonably few of them. For example the brakes are 300E, the ASD diff system from the 300E, and so on. Therefore 99% of what you pay for will be standard (often surprisingly cheap) Mercedes prices. Plenty were built (19,000 2.3s, 5,000 2.5s) so used parts are available.
But the engine will need a top-end overhaul a bit past halfway to those 200,000 miles. I'm going through this now. This may be expensive - e.g. exhaust valves are apparently £70 each. But as a demonstration of their toughness, my car had poor compression when I bought it, but still did 15,000 miles, one track day, and made estimated 186bhp on a rolling road in this time. It's getting a proper recondition now as reward..
But contrary to what Dunk says I don't think you need to bring a big wallet (unless you have it maintained at a main dealer..). Not as big a wallet as you can need for an something like an Audi A8, a BMW M car, a Porsche, or a Jap performance car! Being Mercedes everything is platform-shared, and what isn't is nicely engineered with good factory manuals and specs etc.
Also, shock horror, Mercedes rust! I didn't think it possible, but there are plenty of well rusted ones about. So minor rust isn't an issue but worth treating.
About 50% of the ones for sale will be unpleasant - worn out, abused, modified etc.
60k mile garage queens are about, but you will pay for them. They're a bit naff anyway
You want a proper used one, one where you won't feel guilty driving it like you're meant to! It is after all a Mercedes not a Ferrari.
Dunk-
I heard the rear suspension spheres were quite cheap? The 'shocks' aren't really shocks of course but struts, does this mean they need replacing less than shock absorbers?
The fuel pump relay failing - this happened intermittently on my 2.0. Dodgy internal connection meant one moment it wouldn't start, the next it was absolutely perfect. But I thought that was all it could do? How does it affect fuel pressure? Doesn't the relay merely switch the fuel pumps on and off? (On for ~1 second when ignition first switched on, then gets a signal to keep running once the revs are above ~ 450rpm or something??)
I've had a 2.5-16 for 20 months, and a C-reg 2.0 190E for 6 years. Although a surprising amount of the general public know what they are, garages do not seem to! If you have a garage who knows what a Mercedes Cosworth is, that's a great start.
In general, they are mercifully like any other '80s Mercedes. This means nice well damped handling, good ride, ability to do 200,000 miles happily, easy to work on, a huge steering wheel, reliable and so on.
Additionally it's very rapid when thrashed (but not great at low revs), and handles like no other "sporting" Mercedes with their heavy six- and eight- cylinders. The rarity, value, enthusiast appeal and positive attention it gets is a bonus.
However there's a few caveats due to it being a special model. Cosworth-specific parts (such as the exhaust manifold, ignition computer, and that lap timer) are expensive, but there are reasonably few of them. For example the brakes are 300E, the ASD diff system from the 300E, and so on. Therefore 99% of what you pay for will be standard (often surprisingly cheap) Mercedes prices. Plenty were built (19,000 2.3s, 5,000 2.5s) so used parts are available.
But the engine will need a top-end overhaul a bit past halfway to those 200,000 miles. I'm going through this now. This may be expensive - e.g. exhaust valves are apparently £70 each. But as a demonstration of their toughness, my car had poor compression when I bought it, but still did 15,000 miles, one track day, and made estimated 186bhp on a rolling road in this time. It's getting a proper recondition now as reward..
But contrary to what Dunk says I don't think you need to bring a big wallet (unless you have it maintained at a main dealer..). Not as big a wallet as you can need for an something like an Audi A8, a BMW M car, a Porsche, or a Jap performance car! Being Mercedes everything is platform-shared, and what isn't is nicely engineered with good factory manuals and specs etc.
Also, shock horror, Mercedes rust! I didn't think it possible, but there are plenty of well rusted ones about. So minor rust isn't an issue but worth treating.
About 50% of the ones for sale will be unpleasant - worn out, abused, modified etc.
60k mile garage queens are about, but you will pay for them. They're a bit naff anyway
You want a proper used one, one where you won't feel guilty driving it like you're meant to! It is after all a Mercedes not a Ferrari.Dunk-
I heard the rear suspension spheres were quite cheap? The 'shocks' aren't really shocks of course but struts, does this mean they need replacing less than shock absorbers?
The fuel pump relay failing - this happened intermittently on my 2.0. Dodgy internal connection meant one moment it wouldn't start, the next it was absolutely perfect. But I thought that was all it could do? How does it affect fuel pressure? Doesn't the relay merely switch the fuel pumps on and off? (On for ~1 second when ignition first switched on, then gets a signal to keep running once the revs are above ~ 450rpm or something??)
Pentoman said:
Dunk-
I heard the rear suspension spheres were quite cheap? The 'shocks' aren't really shocks of course but struts, does this mean they need replacing less than shock absorbers?
The fuel pump relay failing - this happened intermittently on my 2.0. Dodgy internal connection meant one moment it wouldn't start, the next it was absolutely perfect. But I thought that was all it could do? How does it affect fuel pressure? Doesn't the relay merely switch the fuel pumps on and off? (On for ~1 second when ignition first switched on, then gets a signal to keep running once the revs are above ~ 450rpm or something??)
Spheres - depends on your idea of cheap. When I rebuilt the back end of my '86 2.3-16, they were £90 each or so. The struts/shocks/dampers were shot on mine at 64K. As they're gas/oil and determine ride height on the SLS, the usual gas/oil failure of the two compartments blowing means contamination of the SLS system. Kills handling as the shock ceases to damp properly, and also stops the SLS working properly.I heard the rear suspension spheres were quite cheap? The 'shocks' aren't really shocks of course but struts, does this mean they need replacing less than shock absorbers?
The fuel pump relay failing - this happened intermittently on my 2.0. Dodgy internal connection meant one moment it wouldn't start, the next it was absolutely perfect. But I thought that was all it could do? How does it affect fuel pressure? Doesn't the relay merely switch the fuel pumps on and off? (On for ~1 second when ignition first switched on, then gets a signal to keep running once the revs are above ~ 450rpm or something??)
My understanding of the K-Jetronic is that it's a variable pressure system. There are no injectors per se, just nozzles on the end of the pipes from the distribution block. Fuelling rate is determined simply by fuel pressure governed by the pump and regulated by the distribution block. The relay was faulty on my 2.3-16, and apart from random starting maladies, it absolutely crippled the power and caused it to run constantly lean. Economical though.
Some good info there Dunk - a couple of things I'd like to clarify though:
The 2.5-16 has bucket-over-shim tappets which are not hydraulic, they require checking and adjusting for clearance in the same way as the 2.3-16.
http://www.detali.ru/cat/MB/B05060000004.0141.gif
The exhaust manifolds are all stainless steel. The early 2.3s used to crack where they are welded, which was due to a design flaw. Later revised type (and those fitted to 2.5-16s) are OK and can be recognised by the supports where the welds are. Not cheap though at £1100+Vat, although there should be plenty of secondhand replacements around by now
Fantastic cars but unfortunately there's very few good examples left.
Will
The 2.5-16 has bucket-over-shim tappets which are not hydraulic, they require checking and adjusting for clearance in the same way as the 2.3-16.
http://www.detali.ru/cat/MB/B05060000004.0141.gif
The exhaust manifolds are all stainless steel. The early 2.3s used to crack where they are welded, which was due to a design flaw. Later revised type (and those fitted to 2.5-16s) are OK and can be recognised by the supports where the welds are. Not cheap though at £1100+Vat, although there should be plenty of secondhand replacements around by now
Fantastic cars but unfortunately there's very few good examples left.
Will
Edited by will_uk on Monday 4th June 15:43
Edited by will_uk on Monday 4th June 15:44
Oh indeed they are - so good I owned two simultaneously!
Trying to find a decent shed is hard enough - I'm considering a trackday/ring special for 2008, but can't find what I want (a rust free high mile manual car for sensible cash).
They're starting to creep into E30 M3 territory in terms of 'any old sh1t is worth at least £5000' now.
Part of the appeal to me was that up until two years ago, they were as good as the M3, but about half the price.
I sold my 64K mile '86 manual in concours condition, having just had a £10K winter full suspension, transmission and underside overhaul, for £4400 three years ago.
If I could find the bloke I sold it to, I'd buy the bugger back....
Trying to find a decent shed is hard enough - I'm considering a trackday/ring special for 2008, but can't find what I want (a rust free high mile manual car for sensible cash).
They're starting to creep into E30 M3 territory in terms of 'any old sh1t is worth at least £5000' now.
Part of the appeal to me was that up until two years ago, they were as good as the M3, but about half the price.
I sold my 64K mile '86 manual in concours condition, having just had a £10K winter full suspension, transmission and underside overhaul, for £4400 three years ago.
If I could find the bloke I sold it to, I'd buy the bugger back....
This might emphasize how hard they are to come by in good condition:
It's a crashed 2.5-16, which was "apparently" concorse before the accident (despite the awful chrome wheels) and "apparently" could be repaired. Also drives perfect and can be test driven.
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/1987-MERCEDES-190E-COSWORTH-...
wait for it...
mmm. good luck with that.
It's a crashed 2.5-16, which was "apparently" concorse before the accident (despite the awful chrome wheels) and "apparently" could be repaired. Also drives perfect and can be test driven.
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/1987-MERCEDES-190E-COSWORTH-...
wait for it...
mmm. good luck with that.
Edited by Pentoman on Tuesday 5th June 11:52
Don't know what your complaining about, its looks a perfect candidate for your track car!!
you'll find a few cheap 16vs for sale here now and again
http://z14.invisionfree.com/mercedes_190_club/inde...
you'll find a few cheap 16vs for sale here now and again
http://z14.invisionfree.com/mercedes_190_club/inde...
Dunk76 said:
I clocked that yesterday!
15mph into a ditch and ends on it's roof?
rightie oh.
He relisted it - I've been watching it - now he's actually added some photographs, I'm going to snap it up and take him up on his suggestion - the first and only convertible Cosworth....watch this space 15mph into a ditch and ends on it's roof?
rightie oh.
I've removed the head from my 2.5-16 last week, if anyone's interested photos are on this page
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
^ cosworth's marking
It's not looking like an expensive job luckily. Everything came off like it was put together yesterday, and all looks in fair condition. Exhausts valves are pretty leaky so a bit of grinding work on the seats required. Hopefully no new exhaust valves needed, they're £70 each (sodium filled or something??)
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
^ cosworth's marking
It's not looking like an expensive job luckily. Everything came off like it was put together yesterday, and all looks in fair condition. Exhausts valves are pretty leaky so a bit of grinding work on the seats required. Hopefully no new exhaust valves needed, they're £70 each (sodium filled or something??)
Sorry to bring this thread back but I'm looking at these at the moment.
2 questions:
1) Is it worth going for the 2.5 rather than the 2.3? There's a nice 2.3 near me which is one owner and seemingly in very nice condition. There's also a 2.5 but it's a wee bit more expensive. The 2.3 is a 1984, the 2.5 a '89. Will obviously test drive them both but is there anything else mechanical which would mean one is perferable than the other?
2) A lot has been said about the suspension on these cars, and the problems when it goes wrong. How can I tell whether this is working as it's meant to?
Thanks!
2 questions:
1) Is it worth going for the 2.5 rather than the 2.3? There's a nice 2.3 near me which is one owner and seemingly in very nice condition. There's also a 2.5 but it's a wee bit more expensive. The 2.3 is a 1984, the 2.5 a '89. Will obviously test drive them both but is there anything else mechanical which would mean one is perferable than the other?
2) A lot has been said about the suspension on these cars, and the problems when it goes wrong. How can I tell whether this is working as it's meant to?
Thanks!
darkmonsta said:
Sorry to bring this thread back but I'm looking at these at the moment.
2 questions:
1) Is it worth going for the 2.5 rather than the 2.3? There's a nice 2.3 near me which is one owner and seemingly in very nice condition. There's also a 2.5 but it's a wee bit more expensive. The 2.3 is a 1984, the 2.5 a '89. Will obviously test drive them both but is there anything else mechanical which would mean one is perferable than the other?
2) A lot has been said about the suspension on these cars, and the problems when it goes wrong. How can I tell whether this is working as it's meant to?
Thanks!
1) the early 2.3 will have a preset tension Diff, which will almost inevitably need rebuilding due to it's inherent wear design. That said, I believe it is a better option from a drivers perspective that the semi-active Diff fitted to post mid-86 cars. The preset diff has one advantage in that when you get it rebuilt, you specificy tension and lock-up ratio (if your diff overhauler knows their stuff) by virtue of the variety of clutch plates over the counter from MB. I rebuilt mine at 50% 2 questions:
1) Is it worth going for the 2.5 rather than the 2.3? There's a nice 2.3 near me which is one owner and seemingly in very nice condition. There's also a 2.5 but it's a wee bit more expensive. The 2.3 is a 1984, the 2.5 a '89. Will obviously test drive them both but is there anything else mechanical which would mean one is perferable than the other?
2) A lot has been said about the suspension on these cars, and the problems when it goes wrong. How can I tell whether this is working as it's meant to?
Thanks!
The 2.5 engine has a duplex timing chain, whereas the 2.3 only has a single. Apart from the obvious capacity difference, and some fairly minor details, they're basically identical.
2) The Suspension is fiendishly complex, and can be hideously expensive - but make no mistake, it's the whole point behind the car. The back end has Self Levelling Suspension (SLS) - this is a pretty basic system using a pump attached externally to the front of the head, driven by the exhaust cam gear. This pumps either brake fluid or ATF (can't remember which) to two pressure spheres mounted either side in the rear axle tub.
(Also to note, the later cars with Semi active Diff use the SLS pump to pressurise the diff plates - they have four pipes running aft from the pump, as opposed to two on the pre-set diff cars)
The spheres accumulate pressure from the pump, and are connected to a pretty basic valve which actuates on the rear ARB - ARB moves (i.e. when you have people or load in the back) and the pressurised fluid is released into the top of the rear shocks/dampers.
The rear shocks are two stage things - being both a traditional shock absorber, and having height adjustability built in. The SLS fluid under pressure effectively raises the rear ride height until the ARB rotates enough to close the valve again. In this system, anything can fail - most likely the pressure spheres will be knackered, and the rear shocks will have stopped working. The valve rods attached to the ARB may also rust up.
The simplest way to check SLS system is to get someone or something to sit on/in the boot, causing the rear to squat. Then turn the engine on. A healthy SLS will restore the ride height to normal within 10-15 seconds (less if the engine is already running).
A healthy SLS system can also be felt on fast long sweeping corners - as the back loads up and squats, you'll feel the back end tighten and the whole cars attitude in the corner will adjust - it's a bizarre feeling at first, as it feels like it's trying to drop into oversteer. Once you're used to it, it becomes an advantage. The SLS doesn't react fast enough to be noticeable in roundabouts/normal corners.
On top of that, the suspension system doesn't use pivoting arms or wishbones - all suspension components are effectively bolted in place and flex on their bushes. It's a brilliant system, but it does mean they wear their bushes out. I'd recommend you budget to change all the back arms at the back (5 per side, easier to buy new arms from Merc than to piss about replacing the bushes) and all the bushes at the front (double wishbone) to really find out how a 'valver' should behave in the corners. I'd also change the rear subframe mounting rubbers.
If the bushes and shocks aren't healthy, the car feels very loose and imprecise - a healthy 2.3/2.5-16 should be scalpel sharp through the corners.
I replaced everything on my 64K mile 2.3-16, and it absolutely transformed it - even today, it's still the most infinitely adjustable, predictable and accomplished Saloon car chassis I've ever experienced - even my mate, who campaigned an Integrale 16v in Tarmac rallies reckoned it was as quick as his rally car in terms of cornering speed.
Other than that, check for Rust behind the bottom of the headlights, underneath the battery and brake reservoir, and along the bottom of the rear screen.
Edited by Dunk76 on Tuesday 10th July 09:59
One other point about the suspension - just to wet your appetite.
The DTM regs of 1984-86 dictated that the road car suspension must be used, allowing only shocks and springs to be changed.
As a result, the arms at the back, and the wishbones at the front, are mounted with concentric washers. This allows competition levels of adjustability in terms of castor, camber, and toe.
If you so desired, once you've replaced the bushes/arms, you could find a suspension set-up specialist in the back of Autosport and get them to set the thing up exactly to your driving style.
Can't do that with an E30 M3
The DTM regs of 1984-86 dictated that the road car suspension must be used, allowing only shocks and springs to be changed.
As a result, the arms at the back, and the wishbones at the front, are mounted with concentric washers. This allows competition levels of adjustability in terms of castor, camber, and toe.
If you so desired, once you've replaced the bushes/arms, you could find a suspension set-up specialist in the back of Autosport and get them to set the thing up exactly to your driving style.
Can't do that with an E30 M3
Thank you! That's just the sort of information that I was after and it's very much appreciated. I'm going to have a look at the both of them and see what I can discover.
I'm assuming the usual timing chains/tensioners/water pump dangers apply? At what sort of mileage should should these have been overhauled?
I'm assuming the usual timing chains/tensioners/water pump dangers apply? At what sort of mileage should should these have been overhauled?
Timing chains to be done when they rattle basically - the 2.5 shouldn't need replacing at all.
The 2.3 engine weak point is the tensioner I believe.
The water pumps, IIRC, are just old skool fanbelt driven items.
The key thing is the valves, they're shim adjusted, and need to be done every other service - otherwise the clearances go to pot and they burn up.
Fuel Pump relays often fail.
The 2.3 engine weak point is the tensioner I believe.
The water pumps, IIRC, are just old skool fanbelt driven items.
The key thing is the valves, they're shim adjusted, and need to be done every other service - otherwise the clearances go to pot and they burn up.
Fuel Pump relays often fail.
I'd say that you've got a much better chance of finding a decent 2.5 than a 2.3 if nothing else than because it'll be a newer car.
The 2.5 does have some advantages over the it's smaller brother, mainly in that some of the problem areas were sorted out in the later incarnation.
A 2.3 with a worn chain and sprockets is going to cost a grand in parts alone plus labour - that's before you factor in any other reconditioning work.
Buy the best car that you can afford, you either pay up front for one that's been loved or they cost you more in the long run.
Service history is pretty crucial when you account for some of the maintenace jobs that will be required, several seemingly minor issues can escalate into ££££s very very quickly.
Again - to reiterate and summerise what others have said as well - look very carefully at:
Rust, suspension, engine, interior, history, owners and mileage. Originality is quite important IMO as it speaks quite a bit about the life the car might have lead
Best of luck and I hope to hear glowing posts soon that you've bagged a nice one
Will
The 2.5 does have some advantages over the it's smaller brother, mainly in that some of the problem areas were sorted out in the later incarnation.
A 2.3 with a worn chain and sprockets is going to cost a grand in parts alone plus labour - that's before you factor in any other reconditioning work.
Buy the best car that you can afford, you either pay up front for one that's been loved or they cost you more in the long run.
Service history is pretty crucial when you account for some of the maintenace jobs that will be required, several seemingly minor issues can escalate into ££££s very very quickly.
Again - to reiterate and summerise what others have said as well - look very carefully at:
Rust, suspension, engine, interior, history, owners and mileage. Originality is quite important IMO as it speaks quite a bit about the life the car might have lead
Best of luck and I hope to hear glowing posts soon that you've bagged a nice one
Will
Or do what I did - buy the second one you go to see (off ebay too!) with almost no history, then over the next 18 months recondition both the gearbox and the top end :lol:.
But I bought it on a gut feeling that the car was in fairly good condition and the mileage approximately correct - luckily this has proven correct and it's turned out to be an admirable, if not perfect example.
As it transpired, there was nothing wrong with the gearbox except the synchro on fourth (and it whines but they couldn't fix that), and the top end rebuild just needed 4 new valves and valve reseating; everything otherwise showed minimal wear, even the timing chain tensioner. However I did do the work myself so it was rather more cost effective than it otherwise would have been.
Done 15,000 fun miles in it now. Just watch out for those modern turbo diesels...
But I bought it on a gut feeling that the car was in fairly good condition and the mileage approximately correct - luckily this has proven correct and it's turned out to be an admirable, if not perfect example.
As it transpired, there was nothing wrong with the gearbox except the synchro on fourth (and it whines but they couldn't fix that), and the top end rebuild just needed 4 new valves and valve reseating; everything otherwise showed minimal wear, even the timing chain tensioner. However I did do the work myself so it was rather more cost effective than it otherwise would have been.
Done 15,000 fun miles in it now. Just watch out for those modern turbo diesels...
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