RE: 500bhp Merc small saloon on the way
Monday 21st May 2007
C63 gets 6.2l V8Here’s a first glimpse of the third and final participant in the ‘Great German Small Super Saloon War’ – the Mercedes Benz C63 AMG.
How much power is enough? 500bhp?Whether AMG will be able to make the new C63 any more of a drivers’ car is open to debate. Certainly the new C Class is a more agile and enjoyable car to drive – especially in Sport trim – than the previous C class, although still not as rewarding as a similar specification BMW Three Series. AMG is showing an increasing tendency towards hardcore performance and has stated its intention to refocus its efforts on core products (no more R63s then…).
500bhp Merc small saloon on the way
C63 AMG caught on camera
C63 gets 6.2l V8
The baby Merc saloon was launched earlier this year and has been expected to inherit the ‘63’ series V8 engine, creating an AMG rival to the Audi RS4 and the forthcoming new BMW M3. All three protagonists will then feature V8 power for the first time in the class.
As can be seen from the photos, the C63 has the usual quad tailpipe arrangement associated with AMG cars, and the ‘63’ badge is also visible.
Despite the name tag, the V8 is actually closer in capacity to 6,200cc than 6,300cc. The unit is AMG’s first unique engine design, and has now appeared in the revised E-Class, the new ML, the CL and S Class plus the CLS. Perhaps most unlikely is its fitment to the R63 to create perhaps the fastest MPV of all time – RenaultSport Espace F1 not withstanding...
So far, AMG has varied the engine’s output depending on the model it is being fitted into. At its weakest it knocks out 503bhp for the E63, and at its strongest it makes 518bhp for the S63 and CL63 models. With Audi and BMW locked in a war of power based around the 420bhp mark, the new C63 should have a considerable power advantage, even if AMG decide to detune the engine.
Enjoying a power advantage in the class is nothing new for Mercedes though – the previous C55 AMG cranked out 372bhp, easily eclipsing the previous generation BMW M3.
How much power is enough? 500bhp?
Perhaps this will be a C Class that finally delivers real driving thrills as well as unfeasibly large amounts of power, although it will certainly have a seven-speed automatic gearbox as the only transmission option.
Still, this is a ‘small’ executive saloon with a 6.2 litre V8 and nearly 500bhp. We like that – a lot – but the question is: where will this power race end?
pictures via: Left Lane News
Discussion
Look at what happened in the USA at the start of the 1970s. They had 500bhp family saloons and then rising insurance costs, rising fuel prices and emission control put a stop to the fun. Now we have rising fuel prices and the CO2 bogeyman to contend with and yet cars get bigger, heavier and headline power goes up with each generation.
I can only the trend halting if such powerful cars are effectively outlawed or if public opinion turns against them and suddenly no-one buys 400bhp Audis or 500bhp Mercedes. If there is a backlash against "excessively powerful" cars I bet it won't be pretty.
I can only the trend halting if such powerful cars are effectively outlawed or if public opinion turns against them and suddenly no-one buys 400bhp Audis or 500bhp Mercedes. If there is a backlash against "excessively powerful" cars I bet it won't be pretty.
fourwheelsteer said:
Look at what happened in the USA at the start of the 1970s. They had 500bhp family saloons and then rising insurance costs, rising fuel prices and emission control put a stop to the fun. Now we have rising fuel prices and the CO2 bogeyman to contend with and yet cars get bigger, heavier and headline power goes up with each generation.
I can only the trend halting if such powerful cars are effectively outlawed or if public opinion turns against them and suddenly no-one buys 400bhp Audis or 500bhp Mercedes. If there is a backlash against "excessively powerful" cars I bet it won't be pretty.
I can only the trend halting if such powerful cars are effectively outlawed or if public opinion turns against them and suddenly no-one buys 400bhp Audis or 500bhp Mercedes. If there is a backlash against "excessively powerful" cars I bet it won't be pretty.
I think the insurance, tax and fuel duty bogymen, not to mention the manufacturers are already pricing these cars out of reach of normal people. The 70's muscle cars were being marketed to middle income folk who couldnt afford the increasing insuarance, therefore killing off the genre. These 50 grand German super saloons are for the high earning income brakets. As for the public opinion backlash, they are somewhat more acceptable than the 4x4 even though they have similar emissions as they are not visually very different to the standard car when viewed by the layman. Having said all that, you do have to wonder what the depreciation will be like on these cars if the government keep on their current emissions taxing route.
p.s. Santa, I would love a 6.3 litre merc..even one that handles like a sack of spuds, but i would take one of these : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercedes
I love the idea of lots of power in a small saloon body - just the car for me, BUT.....
... I am not in a position to afford one yet. But I know what I am getting myself into with this sort of car. My concern is that some of the senior execs who can afford them are just not prepared / able to handle the performance on tap.
I know a lovely bloke who drives an E55 because his job title allows him to tick the "best E-class" box. And he is a bloody liability. Just has know idea what to do with all the power and quite frankly scares the crap out of me the way he drives it. In his hands it really is a weapon.
... I am not in a position to afford one yet. But I know what I am getting myself into with this sort of car. My concern is that some of the senior execs who can afford them are just not prepared / able to handle the performance on tap.
I know a lovely bloke who drives an E55 because his job title allows him to tick the "best E-class" box. And he is a bloody liability. Just has know idea what to do with all the power and quite frankly scares the crap out of me the way he drives it. In his hands it really is a weapon.
ukross said:
I love the idea of lots of power in a small saloon body - just the car for me, BUT.....
... I am not in a position to afford one yet. But I know what I am getting myself into with this sort of car. My concern is that some of the senior execs who can afford them are just not prepared / able to handle the performance on tap.
I know a lovely bloke who drives an E55 because his job title allows him to tick the "best E-class" box. And he is a bloody liability. Just has know idea what to do with all the power and quite frankly scares the crap out of me the way he drives it. In his hands it really is a weapon.
... I am not in a position to afford one yet. But I know what I am getting myself into with this sort of car. My concern is that some of the senior execs who can afford them are just not prepared / able to handle the performance on tap.
I know a lovely bloke who drives an E55 because his job title allows him to tick the "best E-class" box. And he is a bloody liability. Just has know idea what to do with all the power and quite frankly scares the crap out of me the way he drives it. In his hands it really is a weapon.
Just because someone is a senior exec with with the funds to buy these cars doesn't automatically mean they are a bad or inexperienced driver.
There are plenty of £5000 cars out there which can be just as dangerous in the wrong (inexperienced)hands, such as tuned jap turbo cars (supras, RX7's, evo's etc etc).
Sorry...but like 1 or 2 comments above, I'm beginning to yawn more at every Merc/BMW derivative with more power. O.K. I'm sure some of you guys out there are in the frame for changing cars every other year or so for the latest balls-out uber saloon but for me ( & vast majority I suspect) all I think is 'Oooh another V8/10/W12 powerful lump'- then nod off
I'm sure the respective execs have done their sums & will sell enough worldwide in their desired segment & the journos will have multiple orgasms but are they THAT relevant today??
I'm sure the respective execs have done their sums & will sell enough worldwide in their desired segment & the journos will have multiple orgasms but are they THAT relevant today??
fourwheelsteer said:
I can only the trend halting if such powerful cars are effectively outlawed or if public opinion turns against them and suddenly no-one buys 400bhp Audis or 500bhp Mercedes. If there is a backlash against "excessively powerful" cars I bet it won't be pretty.
I have a powerful Audi in that kind of range and most of the time I downplay it out of slight embarrassment. I didn't buy it to impress people (hence an understated Audi), I bought it because I enjoy it. The kinds of people that don't already know what it is are the kinds of people that are likely to think "tosser", if I tell them the truth. So I don't.
john_r said:
Why only 500BHP'ish from a 6.3litre engine? And it'll be so light on the back end that everytime you floor it the traction control will frustrate even the most determined get aways! I know for a fact that my car with a full fuel tank has far fewer interuptions from TC...
Maybe because its a simple engine? Having only 8 cylinders it'll probably be lighter than certain 10 cylinder engines anyway
Supposedlly the 7.0 Corvette engine is lighter than a certain 10 cylinder German engine too 
Depends on what you want, although in this case I don't imagine the cost of the AMG unit goes with its lower output/litre....
andyturner said:
fourwheelsteer said:
I can only the trend halting if such powerful cars are effectively outlawed or if public opinion turns against them and suddenly no-one buys 400bhp Audis or 500bhp Mercedes. If there is a backlash against "excessively powerful" cars I bet it won't be pretty.
I have a powerful Audi in that kind of range and most of the time I downplay it out of slight embarrassment. I didn't buy it to impress people (hence an understated Audi), I bought it because I enjoy it. The kinds of people that don't already know what it is are the kinds of people that are likely to think "tosser", if I tell them the truth. So I don't.
I'm exactly the same re embarrassment; depending on who asks the response is either "a BMW" or "an M5"...
markh450 said:
ukross said:
I love the idea of lots of power in a small saloon body - just the car for me, BUT.....
... I am not in a position to afford one yet. But I know what I am getting myself into with this sort of car. My concern is that some of the senior execs who can afford them are just not prepared / able to handle the performance on tap.
I know a lovely bloke who drives an E55 because his job title allows him to tick the "best E-class" box. And he is a bloody liability. Just has know idea what to do with all the power and quite frankly scares the crap out of me the way he drives it. In his hands it really is a weapon.
... I am not in a position to afford one yet. But I know what I am getting myself into with this sort of car. My concern is that some of the senior execs who can afford them are just not prepared / able to handle the performance on tap.
I know a lovely bloke who drives an E55 because his job title allows him to tick the "best E-class" box. And he is a bloody liability. Just has know idea what to do with all the power and quite frankly scares the crap out of me the way he drives it. In his hands it really is a weapon.
Just because someone is a senior exec with with the funds to buy these cars doesn't automatically mean they are a bad or inexperienced driver.
There are plenty of £5000 cars out there which can be just as dangerous in the wrong (inexperienced)hands, such as tuned jap turbo cars (supras, RX7's, evo's etc etc).
No, I agree with you - not all are, hence why I said some. Many buy them because they are enthusiasts and they have the funds to - good luck to them - hope to be there myself one day.
And I agree with your point about all cars are a danger in the wrong hands. With the rice-burners, most punters are buying them because of the performance and hence at least go in with their eyes open. It's just an observation about these uber-saloons. They're just carrying so much power in a trad saloon body that I honestly beleive some exces are just not even aware how fast their cars are. Coupled with potentially poor driving skills could lead to things getting very out of shape at much higher speeds than expected. At which point I would want me and mine in the next county.
fourwheelsteer said:
Look at what happened in the USA at the start of the 1970s. They had 500bhp family saloons and then rising insurance costs, rising fuel prices and emission control put a stop to the fun.
Also, the change from "SAE Gross" to "SAE Net" killed some of that 500hp fun just by changing the way they were measuring.
Edited by gentelman on Monday 21st May 16:40
sprinter885 said:
Sorry...but like 1 or 2 comments above, I'm beginning to yawn more at every Merc/BMW derivative with more power. O.K. I'm sure some of you guys out there are in the frame for changing cars every other year or so for the latest balls-out uber saloon but for me ( & vast majority I suspect) all I think is 'Oooh another V8/10/W12 powerful lump'- then nod off
I'm sure the respective execs have done their sums & will sell enough worldwide in their desired segment & the journos will have multiple orgasms but are they THAT relevant today??
I'm sure the respective execs have done their sums & will sell enough worldwide in their desired segment & the journos will have multiple orgasms but are they THAT relevant today??
Go buy a Prius then hippy
RichardD said:
[
Having only 8 cylinders it'll probably be lighter than certain 10 cylinder engines anyway Supposedlly the 7.0 Corvette engine is lighter than a certain 10 cylinder German engine too
Having only 8 cylinders it'll probably be lighter than certain 10 cylinder engines anyway
Supposedlly the 7.0 Corvette engine is lighter than a certain 10 cylinder German engine too BMW S85 V10 = 239kg (some sources list this as dry weight, some as wet weight? either way still heavier than the others)
BMW S65 V8 - 202kg (as above, no confirmation if this is dry or wet weight)
BMW S54 I6 - 217kg (no idea if wet or dry)
GM LS7 V8 = 202kg dry weight
AMG M156 V8 = 199kg dry weight
Audi FSI V8 (S4/RS4) = 194kg dry weight
Toyota 1UFZE V8 - 190kg dry weight, incl. accessories
Interesting comparison, but there are so many variables, dry sumps add extra eight, quad overhead cams and hydraulic systems add weight to the top of the engine (OHV engine still have an advantage here, one cam eight at the bottom of the block). Also the general strength of the block isn't taken into account, the LS7 has fairly thin walls, it probably couldn't handle a large dose of forced induction, it's capacity is being reduced for that application to allow thicker walls. making a light engine is one thing, as is making a strong engine, but to get light and strong is more difficult. However the Toyota 1ufze is known as a mighty strong engine and manages to trump the lot on weight. The Audi may have a relatively light engine but that doesn't mean much if they hang it out over the front of the axle, better to have a slightly higher weight and better positioned engine IMO.
The Lexus ISF is probably going to be more of a rival for the C55 in philosophy, the RS4 and M3 are really entirely different beasts altogether, they wont really appeal to same buyer group at all I would have thought, same as the C43 and C32 never really appealled to previous M3 buyers.
oagent said:
fourwheelsteer said:
Look at what happened in the USA at the start of the 1970s. They had 500bhp family saloons and then rising insurance costs, rising fuel prices and emission control put a stop to the fun. Now we have rising fuel prices and the CO2 bogeyman to contend with and yet cars get bigger, heavier and headline power goes up with each generation.
I can only the trend halting if such powerful cars are effectively outlawed or if public opinion turns against them and suddenly no-one buys 400bhp Audis or 500bhp Mercedes. If there is a backlash against "excessively powerful" cars I bet it won't be pretty.
I can only the trend halting if such powerful cars are effectively outlawed or if public opinion turns against them and suddenly no-one buys 400bhp Audis or 500bhp Mercedes. If there is a backlash against "excessively powerful" cars I bet it won't be pretty.
I think the insurance, tax and fuel duty bogymen, not to mention the manufacturers are already pricing these cars out of reach of normal people. The 70's muscle cars were being marketed to middle income folk who couldnt afford the increasing insuarance, therefore killing off the genre. These 50 grand German super saloons are for the high earning income brakets. As for the public opinion backlash, they are somewhat more acceptable than the 4x4 even though they have similar emissions as they are not visually very different to the standard car when viewed by the layman. Having said all that, you do have to wonder what the depreciation will be like on these cars if the government keep on their current emissions taxing route.
p.s. Santa, I would love a 6.3 litre merc..even one that handles like a sack of spuds, but i would take one of these : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercedes
aah, the Mercedes 300SEL 6.3 - what a stonking motor of it's time! Check this link out on YouTube for this car, and see how well it still performed for a car built in the 60s...
www.youtube.com/watch?v=v4M4tRf0eoo
road_terrorist said:
sprinter885 said:
Sorry...but like 1 or 2 comments above, I'm beginning to yawn more at every Merc/BMW derivative with more power. O.K. I'm sure some of you guys out there are in the frame for changing cars every other year or so for the latest balls-out uber saloon but for me ( & vast majority I suspect) all I think is 'Oooh another V8/10/W12 powerful lump'- then nod off
I'm sure the respective execs have done their sums & will sell enough worldwide in their desired segment & the journos will have multiple orgasms but are they THAT relevant today??
I'm sure the respective execs have done their sums & will sell enough worldwide in their desired segment & the journos will have multiple orgasms but are they THAT relevant today??
Go buy a Prius then hippy
There are other alternatives. I’d rather have 250 useable bhp in an agile responsive chassis than 500 bhp in a motorway barge that has the TC working overtime every time you floor it.
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