Discussion
Hi,
I'd like to find out a bit more about the cosworth tweaked merc saloons of the early nineties (190 E Evo???) Has anyone here driven one?
I was wondering what a sensible price is for one these days, what the handling is like and what sort of performance figures they return? I presume build quality and reliability are all good solid old merc?
Chris.
I'd like to find out a bit more about the cosworth tweaked merc saloons of the early nineties (190 E Evo???) Has anyone here driven one?
I was wondering what a sensible price is for one these days, what the handling is like and what sort of performance figures they return? I presume build quality and reliability are all good solid old merc?
Chris.
The cosworths are the 2.3-16, 2.5-16, 2.5-16 Evo, and 2.5-16 Evo II. Cosworth developed the engine from scratch but based on Mercedes' 2.3 8 valve. Cosworth/Mercedes enlarged it to 2.5. Cosworth, Mercedes or AMG developed the short stroke version in the Evo and Evo II, both Evos available with an AMG Power Pack and 235bhp - the pack is standard on Evo II.
I have a standard 2.5-16, the handling feels very good to me, balanced and grippy. I've never spent enough hours in many other performance cars so can't offer much of a fair comparison, but many here say they're fantastic handling. Martin Brundle at the time said they're the best handling saloon you could buy. Jack Sears has one, supposedly lots of other racers too. It is also relatively safe handling - the long wheelbase means it's not snappy, and multi link independant suspension probably helps here. Performance is 0-60 in 8.0 secs for the 2.3, 7.2 secs for the 2.5. Acceptable but sometimes they don't always feel as fast as the figures, due to a fairly linear power curve and low torque compared to modern cars. Just like the E30 M3 really. Go for the 2.5 if you're worried about being burned off by modern GTi's/STs/VXRs - it has noticeable extra performance over the 2.5. You can keep up with plenty of quick modern stuff but have to work for it.
But don't mistake any of that for boring, there's an LSD and no traction control, and I have had the back come out in the wet at 70mph in 3rd gear exiting a large motorway roundabout, with pretty new tyres. I was ready and expecting it so it wasn't a problem, but my heart was still racing afterwards. Basically if the idea of this interests you, wou will love it, but if a torquey diesel that does 45MPG and has ESP and safe super grippy front wheel drive handling interests you more, it will just seem like an old Mercedes
.
Being an old Mercedes it's reliable, well built, will do 200k miles and all of those happy things. But it's also 15 years old so you will need to do non-standard maintenance such as fixing running problems, replacing electric window motors etc, even repairing rust, especially if you buy a banger. Parts are standard Merc prices (i.e. often surprisingly cheap) apart from a few unique ones such as exhaust manifolds, the exhaust valves, engine computer etc. But compared to running an M3, Integrale or fast Japanese car it's dead cheap unless you're very unlucky, and it's probably tougher than any of them.
Bangers start at £2k for something not too pretty with lots of miles but mechanically sound, to £6k for a really nice sub 100k 2.5. If you're thinking of Evos, double that price each time you add an Evolution.
I have a standard 2.5-16, the handling feels very good to me, balanced and grippy. I've never spent enough hours in many other performance cars so can't offer much of a fair comparison, but many here say they're fantastic handling. Martin Brundle at the time said they're the best handling saloon you could buy. Jack Sears has one, supposedly lots of other racers too. It is also relatively safe handling - the long wheelbase means it's not snappy, and multi link independant suspension probably helps here. Performance is 0-60 in 8.0 secs for the 2.3, 7.2 secs for the 2.5. Acceptable but sometimes they don't always feel as fast as the figures, due to a fairly linear power curve and low torque compared to modern cars. Just like the E30 M3 really. Go for the 2.5 if you're worried about being burned off by modern GTi's/STs/VXRs - it has noticeable extra performance over the 2.5. You can keep up with plenty of quick modern stuff but have to work for it.
But don't mistake any of that for boring, there's an LSD and no traction control, and I have had the back come out in the wet at 70mph in 3rd gear exiting a large motorway roundabout, with pretty new tyres. I was ready and expecting it so it wasn't a problem, but my heart was still racing afterwards. Basically if the idea of this interests you, wou will love it, but if a torquey diesel that does 45MPG and has ESP and safe super grippy front wheel drive handling interests you more, it will just seem like an old Mercedes
. Being an old Mercedes it's reliable, well built, will do 200k miles and all of those happy things. But it's also 15 years old so you will need to do non-standard maintenance such as fixing running problems, replacing electric window motors etc, even repairing rust, especially if you buy a banger. Parts are standard Merc prices (i.e. often surprisingly cheap) apart from a few unique ones such as exhaust manifolds, the exhaust valves, engine computer etc. But compared to running an M3, Integrale or fast Japanese car it's dead cheap unless you're very unlucky, and it's probably tougher than any of them.
Bangers start at £2k for something not too pretty with lots of miles but mechanically sound, to £6k for a really nice sub 100k 2.5. If you're thinking of Evos, double that price each time you add an Evolution.
I've never driven one, but I know they are nice cars.
There was the 2.3-16, which enthusiasts regard as the "true" Cosworth, as I believe when the 2.5-16 was released, it used Mercedes' own cylinder heads & cams (? I think thats the parts Cosworth made, although I'm sure I will be corrected if I'm wrong).
The Evolutions were made by Mercedes so they could enter the German touring car series (DTM). 502 Evolutions were made in 1989, and then 502 Evolution 2s were made in 1990. Six Evo 2s officiallt made it to Britian.
190 Evolution
190 Evolution 2
As for prices...........
The 2.3-16s and 2.5-16s fetch anywhere between £1,500-10,000 depending on condition, mileage, etc. Manuals are more common than the autos, and more suited to the rev-happy engine. Rough, ragged, thrashed examples should be avoided. Not matter how much you pay, a FSH is essential. Build quality is certainly rock-solid.
The Evolution 1 and 2 models are more expensive due to their rarity. Evolutions start from around £12,000 and Evolution 2s start from around £25,000. Both Evolution models were made in LHD only.
I hope this helps!
Darren
P.S.
Pentoman on here is the moderate/owner of a 190E enthusiasts/owners site (www.mercedes190.co.uk), so I'm sure he'll add or correct whatever I've mentioned above
ETA: You beat me to it!
There was the 2.3-16, which enthusiasts regard as the "true" Cosworth, as I believe when the 2.5-16 was released, it used Mercedes' own cylinder heads & cams (? I think thats the parts Cosworth made, although I'm sure I will be corrected if I'm wrong).
The Evolutions were made by Mercedes so they could enter the German touring car series (DTM). 502 Evolutions were made in 1989, and then 502 Evolution 2s were made in 1990. Six Evo 2s officiallt made it to Britian.
190 Evolution
190 Evolution 2
As for prices...........
The 2.3-16s and 2.5-16s fetch anywhere between £1,500-10,000 depending on condition, mileage, etc. Manuals are more common than the autos, and more suited to the rev-happy engine. Rough, ragged, thrashed examples should be avoided. Not matter how much you pay, a FSH is essential. Build quality is certainly rock-solid.
The Evolution 1 and 2 models are more expensive due to their rarity. Evolutions start from around £12,000 and Evolution 2s start from around £25,000. Both Evolution models were made in LHD only.
I hope this helps!
Darren
P.S.
Pentoman on here is the moderate/owner of a 190E enthusiasts/owners site (www.mercedes190.co.uk), so I'm sure he'll add or correct whatever I've mentioned above
ETA: You beat me to it!
Edited by iluvmercs on Monday 18th December 17:26
Finally, if you want to know everything about them, read the wikipedia page at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercedes because I wrote almost all of it
Buy one - they are a good handling, well built RWD "old school" car - power oversteer in the wet if you want (and in my experience it corrects itself), but nigh impossible to unstick in the dry - very little underster and totally neutral.
I echo the torque comments - buy a Clio 172 if you want to burn "Saxo Dazzo" off. I also think the Cossie is kinda "cool". I'm not sure I'd bother with an Evo - all these were lhd, remember, and their price premium puts them in a bracket with Porsche 964s and the like.
I echo the torque comments - buy a Clio 172 if you want to burn "Saxo Dazzo" off. I also think the Cossie is kinda "cool". I'm not sure I'd bother with an Evo - all these were lhd, remember, and their price premium puts them in a bracket with Porsche 964s and the like.
http://driving.timesonline.co.uk/arti
"FUTURE CLASSIC
Mercedes 190E 2.5-16, 1988-1993.
Price guide £2,500-£10,000 (depending on condition)
There are so many reasons for picking Mercedes’ race-bred saloon over the BMW M3. The M3 is notoriously fragile and expensive to fix, it is left-hand drive, there are only two doors, dubious imports abound, and hot wind has fanned its reputation beyond all proportion, so prices are over-inflated.
With its Cosworth-designed 16-valve cylinder head, the Mercedes 190E 2.5-16 delivers gutsy performance. But crucially it’s reliable, and the rest of the 190E is Mercedes over-engineering at its best. Prices are holding rock steady at £5,000-£6,000 for good examples, while the best fetch up to £10,000. It originally cost £38,272. As a future investment, then, now is clearly the time to buy one. "
"FUTURE CLASSIC
Mercedes 190E 2.5-16, 1988-1993.
Price guide £2,500-£10,000 (depending on condition)
There are so many reasons for picking Mercedes’ race-bred saloon over the BMW M3. The M3 is notoriously fragile and expensive to fix, it is left-hand drive, there are only two doors, dubious imports abound, and hot wind has fanned its reputation beyond all proportion, so prices are over-inflated.
With its Cosworth-designed 16-valve cylinder head, the Mercedes 190E 2.5-16 delivers gutsy performance. But crucially it’s reliable, and the rest of the 190E is Mercedes over-engineering at its best. Prices are holding rock steady at £5,000-£6,000 for good examples, while the best fetch up to £10,000. It originally cost £38,272. As a future investment, then, now is clearly the time to buy one. "
rubystone said:
I echo the torque comments - buy a Clio 172 if you want to burn "Saxo Dazzo" off. I also think the Cossie is kinda "cool". I'm not sure I'd bother with an Evo - all these were lhd, remember, and their price premium puts them in a bracket with Porsche 964s and the like.
My experiences over the past year show it's not slower than a 172, accelerates dead evenly with a Civic type-R, and likewise an '04 Cooper S until about 80 after which point it seems to be a lot quicker than the mini. But in all these cases you will be thrashing it.
rubystone said:
Buy one - they are a good handling, well built RWD "old school" car - power oversteer in the wet if you want (and in my experience it corrects itself), but nigh impossible to unstick in the dry - very little underster and totally neutral.
I echo the torque comments - buy a Clio 172 if you want to burn "Saxo Dazzo" off. I also think the Cossie is kinda "cool". I'm not sure I'd bother with an Evo - all these were lhd, remember, and their price premium puts them in a bracket with Porsche 964s and the like.
I echo the torque comments - buy a Clio 172 if you want to burn "Saxo Dazzo" off. I also think the Cossie is kinda "cool". I'm not sure I'd bother with an Evo - all these were lhd, remember, and their price premium puts them in a bracket with Porsche 964s and the like.
Nope, sorry, I'm too much of a RWD fan to get a eurobox!
(it is with some trepidation that I add the saxo is actually quite a good little car - such a shame it was successfully marketed at the big stereo brigade it deserves better)
Anyway, think I may have to conclude an Evo is out of my price range. I'm not sure I could justify 968 CS money for one. Very cool cars though.
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