History of the Mercedes Cosworth
Discussion
Over the time of owning a 190E and more recently a Cosworth one, I'd learned lots about them, so decided to rewrite the Wikipedia page about them with what I'd learnt.
The bit about the Cosworth models is an interesting story, so if you have never heard it, have forgotten it, or even if you think you know it all already (some bits may surprise you) then please have a read:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercedes
The bit about the Cosworth models is an interesting story, so if you have never heard it, have forgotten it, or even if you think you know it all already (some bits may surprise you) then please have a read:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercedes
tonylal said:
You are truly worthy of the Coscast head Pento -
Thanks, that is quite a compliment (I think)!
I have just the one H-reg 2.5-16 that's all. But I may one day in the far future acquire a quite special and interesting history 2.3-16.
On the mercedes190.co.uk site a member has 2x 2.5-16s. One of them has only 14,000 miles and was dry stored nearly all its life. He payed well over £10k:
I've seen it and it's very special - it just sparkles like a brand new car and looks so different to any other 16v.
What special 2.3 is that then? Wouldn't be smoke silver would it?...holds the record for the fastest sprint from the exit of the Paddock Bend tunnel to the entrance to the pits...
Pentoman - who would you recommend to service my 2.3-16 in Essex?...and what should I have done on it for a 100,000 mile service?..and what oil should I be using in it?
Pentoman - who would you recommend to service my 2.3-16 in Essex?...and what should I have done on it for a 100,000 mile service?..and what oil should I be using in it?
rubystone said:
What special 2.3 is that then? Wouldn't be smoke silver would it?...holds the record for the fastest sprint from the exit of the Paddock Bend tunnel to the entrance to the pits...
!!? Nope, this is black. Tell me more about that one!
[quote]
Pentoman - who would you recommend to service my 2.3-16 in Essex?...and what should I have done on it for a 100,000 mile service?..and what oil should I be using in it?[/quote]
Unfortunately at the moment by 16v is burning oil faster than I can put it in
, until I can get on top of it I am using something thick and non-synthetic. Luckily I'm used to it as my 2.0 is exactly the same 
. Not sure about Essex as that is miles away from me
but mercedes190.co.uk guys may be able to help you, or alternatively mbclub.co.uk or mercedesclub.org.uk. MB Dealers will do you a serviec, but with less than 20,000 16v's made worldwide, I'm guessing it has been a while since most of them saw one! I imagine some sort of decent independent garage would be better (make sure they use OEM parts, most of which don't seem to be expensive). The car is not complex or unreliable, parts are readily available, and most of the systems are standard for that era of car. So anyone familiar with '80s stuff would be perfect. From what I've seen plenty of places are more than happy to do the "lets bodge a couple of wires across those terminals" approach to repairing these cars for some reason so hopefully you can avoid that type of place.
I gather the standard of Mercedes "specialists" can be a bit hazy so don't automatically assume they'll be good...
However my parents run an independant garage so I'm not the person to ask about all this
At the mileage you may want to get measured the stretch on the timing chain. They don't commonly break except on earlier 2.3-16s but that sort of mileage you may wish to replace it, and at the same time it's prudent to do the other bits that go along with that (tensioners etc?).
Good luck with it!
Russell
Russell - that car was Ayrton Senna's - IIRC it was RHD too - I dont know where it is now.
So what's special about the one you're buying?
I could also do with a better set of wheels, either standard or Evo (which I think are slightly wider)..or refurb my existing ones.
NB My car is probably an early 2.3 - 1986...
So what's special about the one you're buying?
I could also do with a better set of wheels, either standard or Evo (which I think are slightly wider)..or refurb my existing ones.
NB My car is probably an early 2.3 - 1986...
rubystone said:
Russell - that car was Ayrton Senna's - IIRC it was RHD too - I dont know where it is now.
So what's special about the one you're buying?
I could also do with a better set of wheels, either standard or Evo (which I think are slightly wider)..or refurb my existing ones.
NB My car is probably an early 2.3 - 1986...
So what's special about the one you're buying?
I could also do with a better set of wheels, either standard or Evo (which I think are slightly wider)..or refurb my existing ones.
NB My car is probably an early 2.3 - 1986...
Well this car is nothing like as special as that! Was owned by a racing driver though. I'm saving talking about it though because I don't know if it'll ever happen - its out of my hands.
Your car is not too early or late, I think the 2.3 was replaced in 89.
I think there was a major difference with the chains on the earlier (more breakage prone) 2.3s, something like a single row chain versus a double row chain.
Evo wheels (or more usually ones from the '90s SL which are the same style and diameter - not sure about width) are available surprisingly cheap second hand/ebay. People have bought sets for merely £100.
[quote=pentoman
Well this car is nothing like as special as that! Was owned by a racing driver though. I'm saving talking about it though because I don't know if it'll ever happen - its out of my hands.
[/quote]
A number of drivers owned them - IIRC Brundle had one too. Good luck and make sure you let me know when you collect it
Well this car is nothing like as special as that! Was owned by a racing driver though. I'm saving talking about it though because I don't know if it'll ever happen - its out of my hands.
[/quote]
A number of drivers owned them - IIRC Brundle had one too. Good luck and make sure you let me know when you collect it
Im sure Shumy one, well that is an assun as there is a pic of him posing with it in race overalls....
Good bit of work mate, what you got planned for the cos?
Rubystone- just had a 100,000 mile service done Well 200,000 anyway.
Its worth getting the cam chain and tensioner done, if its rattly on start up (before oil pressure builds up) its on the way out & will cost a pretty penny to get those valves straightened! merc spares are second to none but v pricey considering the age (£200+ VAT for a timing gear!) worth getting fully synthetic oil, 10w40 I used and ran sweet as a nut. Get the box and diff oil done too, along with usual service items-filters etc...
Dont know who to recommend, any merc specialist I suppose with a good rep. I paid £400 for the chain & tensioner plus service on top....
Good bit of work mate, what you got planned for the cos?
Rubystone- just had a 100,000 mile service done Well 200,000 anyway.
Its worth getting the cam chain and tensioner done, if its rattly on start up (before oil pressure builds up) its on the way out & will cost a pretty penny to get those valves straightened! merc spares are second to none but v pricey considering the age (£200+ VAT for a timing gear!) worth getting fully synthetic oil, 10w40 I used and ran sweet as a nut. Get the box and diff oil done too, along with usual service items-filters etc...
Dont know who to recommend, any merc specialist I suppose with a good rep. I paid £400 for the chain & tensioner plus service on top....
Edited by ol' dirty on Friday 3rd November 16:53
Refurb is probably the way to go, although I recently saw some that were refurbed but the paint was a bit bubbly in all those holes. So might be worth getting a reputable place to do it.
If they're all black and dirty it looks so much better when cleaned up.
How are you finding the handling rubystone? Not sure if you saw my thread but I've been out practicing oversteer at night on a local quiet, spacious private business park. Discovered it's very stable and not attempting to swap ends all the time like I feared. Still has its sweaty palmed moments of back end wiggle in the wet. Wish the steering was a bit quicker and driving position a lot better.
If they're all black and dirty it looks so much better when cleaned up.
How are you finding the handling rubystone? Not sure if you saw my thread but I've been out practicing oversteer at night on a local quiet, spacious private business park. Discovered it's very stable and not attempting to swap ends all the time like I feared. Still has its sweaty palmed moments of back end wiggle in the wet. Wish the steering was a bit quicker and driving position a lot better.
The day I bought it, I had new rear tyres fitted and booted it round a local bend - it swapped ends on me and that was with full opposite lock applied as soon as it slid. Then I realised...the releasing agent was still on the tyres. Sure enough, after 50 miles or so it was fine. In the dry I haven't been able to provoke oversteer at all (even lift-off).
Last week I found some space and had it sideways on a greasy corner - it self corrected as soon as I came off the power and I ended up having to wind off lock - but not quick enough - so hardly an elegant drift, more a fishtail. That shows what a good chassis it is and in that way it was uncannily similar to my Caterhams. I'd love to trackday it, but not sure I could sacrifice the chance to run my Caterham!
I'd like to find a decently priced Evo1 (I came across one in the summer at £6995) but it was lhd....did they produce any in RHD?
Make no mistake, these cars are built to last and have a great chassis...and if you look hard enough, you can unearth a decent one for pocket money....so what are you waiting for?
Edited to add that I stuck a smaller Momo on my 190E and it made the world of difference. I kept that wheel when I sold the car and a month ago swapped it for the standard fit one on my Cossie. It helps you wind lock on and allows you to get closer to the pedals without fouling the wheel - it does obscure the warning lights though. Now all I have to do is to remove the throttle pedal slack to help me heel and toe!
Last week I found some space and had it sideways on a greasy corner - it self corrected as soon as I came off the power and I ended up having to wind off lock - but not quick enough - so hardly an elegant drift, more a fishtail. That shows what a good chassis it is and in that way it was uncannily similar to my Caterhams. I'd love to trackday it, but not sure I could sacrifice the chance to run my Caterham!
I'd like to find a decently priced Evo1 (I came across one in the summer at £6995) but it was lhd....did they produce any in RHD?
Make no mistake, these cars are built to last and have a great chassis...and if you look hard enough, you can unearth a decent one for pocket money....so what are you waiting for?
Edited to add that I stuck a smaller Momo on my 190E and it made the world of difference. I kept that wheel when I sold the car and a month ago swapped it for the standard fit one on my Cossie. It helps you wind lock on and allows you to get closer to the pedals without fouling the wheel - it does obscure the warning lights though. Now all I have to do is to remove the throttle pedal slack to help me heel and toe!
Edited by rubystone on Thursday 7th December 13:50
Thanks for the steering wheel tip - I've been meaning to fit a smaller one. Glad it makes a difference.
In the dry I found it quite hard to get the back out due to the grip, but that was on a fairly tight roundabout. Felt quite throttle balanced, but not to the point of actually doing lift-off oversteer. I remember you telling me about your incident with the back end before.
Interestingly, last Friday I drove back to back a 993 Porsche, an old square 1997 Merc S500, and the cossie. The 993 was of course pretty special, and much more powerful. And the S500 newer, much more luxurious, with 320 bhp and all the toys. But I didn't feel short changed to sit back in the drivers seat of the 190, which is something of a combination of those two cars.
I also drove a 2.3 cossie the other day (mine's a 2.5) and it's noticeably less pokey throughout the rev range. So definitely worth getting a 2.5 or Evo. Features/equipment/toys are all a bit newer too.
Sensible-ish price, useable Evo: http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Mercedes-190E-E
Evos are all left hand drive though. Supposedly much better suited to track.
Techy bit if you're into it:
The throttle pedal slack can be removed by simply adjusting under the steering wheel at the pedal. There's some nobs you can turn with your hands if I remember correctly.
Note that removing the slack this way may prevent the throttle fully releasing as far as it should. This can prevent it activating a small switch on the throttle linkage (on the engine) which tells the ECU you are off the throttle. Basically it could increase the fuel consumption, not by very much though. Could affect engine running but didn't when I tried it.
In the dry I found it quite hard to get the back out due to the grip, but that was on a fairly tight roundabout. Felt quite throttle balanced, but not to the point of actually doing lift-off oversteer. I remember you telling me about your incident with the back end before
. Interestingly, last Friday I drove back to back a 993 Porsche, an old square 1997 Merc S500, and the cossie. The 993 was of course pretty special, and much more powerful. And the S500 newer, much more luxurious, with 320 bhp and all the toys. But I didn't feel short changed to sit back in the drivers seat of the 190, which is something of a combination of those two cars.
I also drove a 2.3 cossie the other day (mine's a 2.5) and it's noticeably less pokey throughout the rev range. So definitely worth getting a 2.5 or Evo. Features/equipment/toys are all a bit newer too.
Sensible-ish price, useable Evo: http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Mercedes-190E-E
Evos are all left hand drive though. Supposedly much better suited to track.
Techy bit if you're into it:
The throttle pedal slack can be removed by simply adjusting under the steering wheel at the pedal
. There's some nobs you can turn with your hands if I remember correctly. Note that removing the slack this way may prevent the throttle fully releasing as far as it should. This can prevent it activating a small switch on the throttle linkage (on the engine) which tells the ECU you are off the throttle. Basically it could increase the fuel consumption, not by very much though. Could affect engine running but didn't when I tried it.
Thanks for the throttle tip. That Evo is also for sale elsewhere for £12k.
I drove 2 2.5s and didn't find them that much quicker than my car - I'm not overtly bothered about ultimate performance - I have 500 bhp per tonne in the Caterham after all! I just love the balance of the Merc. Incidentally, my mechanic claims he has sourced a new timing chain for £43!!! I want to make sure it's the correct one though!
I drove 2 2.5s and didn't find them that much quicker than my car - I'm not overtly bothered about ultimate performance - I have 500 bhp per tonne in the Caterham after all! I just love the balance of the Merc. Incidentally, my mechanic claims he has sourced a new timing chain for £43!!! I want to make sure it's the correct one though!
[quote=rubystone]Thanks for the throttle tip. That Evo is also for sale elsewhere for £12k.
I drove 2 2.5s and didn't find them that much quicker than my car - I'm not overtly bothered about ultimate performance - quote]
There not mate, I had a duel with one from Plymouth to Exeter up the a30 & he could not pull on me, even up hill. I found they have alot more low down grunt, but get the 2.3 in the right gear and they wont go anywhere!
God I miss mine, Driving into work this morning was so dull...
I drove 2 2.5s and didn't find them that much quicker than my car - I'm not overtly bothered about ultimate performance - quote]
There not mate, I had a duel with one from Plymouth to Exeter up the a30 & he could not pull on me, even up hill. I found they have alot more low down grunt, but get the 2.3 in the right gear and they wont go anywhere!
God I miss mine, Driving into work this morning was so dull...
Re: Chain. The mechanic may wish to replace those other bits (guides/tensioners? or even sprockets) as well as the chain if deemed necessary, which brings the price up a bit.
On the plus side rubystone - it the chain is old and has stretched, replacing it supposedly improves low down torque and the general torque curve, because with a stretched chain the cam timing goes awol and it can shift the powerband upwards.
On the plus side rubystone - it the chain is old and has stretched, replacing it supposedly improves low down torque and the general torque curve, because with a stretched chain the cam timing goes awol and it can shift the powerband upwards.
Ex-Klaus Ludwig race Evolution 2.
Only £38.5k, with 350bhp and 380bhp engines, 12 pot (!) brakes. Cheap considering a roadgoing Evo 2 is £20-25k.
And to think people spend all that money on M3 CSLs and GT3 RSs for track days! The money saved could be spent on a pit crew to run it...
www.carandclassic.co.uk/car/C09233
Only £38.5k, with 350bhp and 380bhp engines, 12 pot (!) brakes. Cheap considering a roadgoing Evo 2 is £20-25k.
And to think people spend all that money on M3 CSLs and GT3 RSs for track days! The money saved could be spent on a pit crew to run it...
www.carandclassic.co.uk/car/C09233
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