C216 CL63 (6.2) AMG - Opinions
Discussion
All,
Do any of you have experience with this car? I'm aware of the M156 issues and I'm happy to take on that risk as I specifically want the engine rather than the 5.5. Otherwise what is your opinion of the car itself? I need a family car (but don't like saloons or estates) so the size of the CL makes it a more practical coupe than a CLK, which I've owned a few of now and fancy a change.
Thanks.
Do any of you have experience with this car? I'm aware of the M156 issues and I'm happy to take on that risk as I specifically want the engine rather than the 5.5. Otherwise what is your opinion of the car itself? I need a family car (but don't like saloons or estates) so the size of the CL makes it a more practical coupe than a CLK, which I've owned a few of now and fancy a change.
Thanks.
I prefer the styling and overall spec of the AMG, and although impressive the 65 is more performance than I need.
I previously owned a CLK63 and it was too effortless to be enjoyable (personal taste) - it would romp to the limiter at an indicated 165 without seemingly breaking a sweat. I think the 63 in the heavier CL will suit me more as I like to work the engine a little bit to access its performance.
Your car sounds like a monster. Engine choice aside have you been happy with the 216 CL?
I previously owned a CLK63 and it was too effortless to be enjoyable (personal taste) - it would romp to the limiter at an indicated 165 without seemingly breaking a sweat. I think the 63 in the heavier CL will suit me more as I like to work the engine a little bit to access its performance.
Your car sounds like a monster. Engine choice aside have you been happy with the 216 CL?
Each generation - C140, C215 & C216 has its own character.
C140 - peerless build quality, great refinement, bullet proof. - 48 valve V12;
C215 - sportiest of the bunch (Bi-turbo) - lightest, lowest;
C216 - Sort of halfway between the two above - a bigger & heavier car than the C215 but with the refinement of the C140.
The C215 is about 150 kg lighter than the C216 & feels a bit sportier.
The much maligned ABC system if well maintained can be trouble free & is an incredibly sophisticated system.
The C215 has a combination thermo plastic front wings & boot lid, aluminium rear wings, roof & bonnet & cast magnesium door frames & crash structures with selective use of high strength steel in some of the central crash structures, and parts of the roof frame.
The C216 was a return to the sort of dimensions & weight last seen in the C140, so that it could go head to head with the Bentley Continental GT.
Dynamically these cars are in different class to the contemporary Bentley Conti GT with their lower centre of gravity, better weight distribution, hydraulic suspension system, lower weight & rear wheel drive.
After the C140 Mercedes went all out to get weight out of the model for the C215. The C140 is defined by its quad-cam 48 valve V12 & stellar build quality (at least before '95 when M-B started to get costs out of all there models).
Actually Bruno Sacco intended the C140 to be long, low, curvaceous & Jaguar like, but engineering handled him a platform with dimensions so gargantuan that he had to abandon that approach. He did however get his way with the C215 which was a reaction to the C140's size, cost and weight
In my opinion - the biggest improvement you make to these cars is to fit a Quaife ATB diff.
I fully get the desire for the 6.3 N/A - it will be noisy, powerful, torquey & characterful in the the way that only truly big capacity engines can be.
C140 - peerless build quality, great refinement, bullet proof. - 48 valve V12;
C215 - sportiest of the bunch (Bi-turbo) - lightest, lowest;
C216 - Sort of halfway between the two above - a bigger & heavier car than the C215 but with the refinement of the C140.
The C215 is about 150 kg lighter than the C216 & feels a bit sportier.
The much maligned ABC system if well maintained can be trouble free & is an incredibly sophisticated system.
The C215 has a combination thermo plastic front wings & boot lid, aluminium rear wings, roof & bonnet & cast magnesium door frames & crash structures with selective use of high strength steel in some of the central crash structures, and parts of the roof frame.
The C216 was a return to the sort of dimensions & weight last seen in the C140, so that it could go head to head with the Bentley Continental GT.
Dynamically these cars are in different class to the contemporary Bentley Conti GT with their lower centre of gravity, better weight distribution, hydraulic suspension system, lower weight & rear wheel drive.
After the C140 Mercedes went all out to get weight out of the model for the C215. The C140 is defined by its quad-cam 48 valve V12 & stellar build quality (at least before '95 when M-B started to get costs out of all there models).
Actually Bruno Sacco intended the C140 to be long, low, curvaceous & Jaguar like, but engineering handled him a platform with dimensions so gargantuan that he had to abandon that approach. He did however get his way with the C215 which was a reaction to the C140's size, cost and weight
In my opinion - the biggest improvement you make to these cars is to fit a Quaife ATB diff.
I fully get the desire for the 6.3 N/A - it will be noisy, powerful, torquey & characterful in the the way that only truly big capacity engines can be.
Thank you very much - fantastic information. Diff recommendation noted.
The only problem now is that you have me looking at the C215 in addition to a C216...oh dear!
The V12's look reasonably priced e.g. https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202202283... Do they suffer from rust like many other models from that era?
The only problem now is that you have me looking at the C215 in addition to a C216...oh dear!
The V12's look reasonably priced e.g. https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202202283... Do they suffer from rust like many other models from that era?
I forgot - the C215's doors are also aluminium skins but with cast magnesium frames.
The Cd for the C215 & C216 is 0.28 - so they're slippery devils and with a remap will go out beyond 200 mph if pub bragging rights mean anything to you.
Even the old C140 of 1992 has a cd of 0.29 despite their brackish looks (179 mph if delimited).
Mercedes is an industrial giant & the beauty of its flagship products is that they're technologically superior to the small firms of handmade exotics, but they fly under the radar in a way a Bentley, Aston or Ferrari never could.
VAG are essentially parts-bin experts - a legacy of the Piech years. A Bentley Continental is essentially a Phaeton / A8 platform, two VR6 engines sharing a crank & an Audi four-wheel drive system. That means a W12 which lacks the primary, secondary & tertiary balance of a V12, is a cuboid motor with a high C of G, mounted in front of the axle line with turbo charger placement making many repairs an engine-out job.
The ABC system is amazing - M-B even experimented with getting the cars to lean into the corners but drivers found it unnatural & perhaps it made it more difficult to progressively creep up on the limits.
Only 2,255 C215 bi-turbo's were built - most being LHD - so they're no longer thick on the ground & have been gradually finding their way into collections.
The cars were virtually hand-built on their own line in Sindelfingen - owing to the complex mix of aluminium, magnesium, thermo plastic & high-strength steel construction. The M275 bi-turbo V12 was always handbuilt, not just the AMG versions.
IMHO - in a world of EV's, twin-turbo V12's will be seen as amongst peak ICE technology.
The Cd for the C215 & C216 is 0.28 - so they're slippery devils and with a remap will go out beyond 200 mph if pub bragging rights mean anything to you.
Even the old C140 of 1992 has a cd of 0.29 despite their brackish looks (179 mph if delimited).
Mercedes is an industrial giant & the beauty of its flagship products is that they're technologically superior to the small firms of handmade exotics, but they fly under the radar in a way a Bentley, Aston or Ferrari never could.
VAG are essentially parts-bin experts - a legacy of the Piech years. A Bentley Continental is essentially a Phaeton / A8 platform, two VR6 engines sharing a crank & an Audi four-wheel drive system. That means a W12 which lacks the primary, secondary & tertiary balance of a V12, is a cuboid motor with a high C of G, mounted in front of the axle line with turbo charger placement making many repairs an engine-out job.
The ABC system is amazing - M-B even experimented with getting the cars to lean into the corners but drivers found it unnatural & perhaps it made it more difficult to progressively creep up on the limits.
Only 2,255 C215 bi-turbo's were built - most being LHD - so they're no longer thick on the ground & have been gradually finding their way into collections.
The cars were virtually hand-built on their own line in Sindelfingen - owing to the complex mix of aluminium, magnesium, thermo plastic & high-strength steel construction. The M275 bi-turbo V12 was always handbuilt, not just the AMG versions.
IMHO - in a world of EV's, twin-turbo V12's will be seen as amongst peak ICE technology.
Beware - do not confuse the Series I C215 (1999 - 2002) with the M137 5.8 litre N/A engine with the Series II (2002 - 2006) with the M275 V12 Bi-turbo engine.
The Series I is 367 bhp & the Series II is 500 bhp with a mountain more torque.
The M137 suffered from bore ovality, head gasket issues, excessive oil consumption, bore scoring (due to block flex) and is regarded as the worst of Mercedes three V12 engines (M120 / M137 / M275)
They built the M275 by the strengthening the M137 block with thicker castings and more webbing and reduced the bore from 84mm to 82mm. It has proved to be a very reliable powerhouse!
The Series I is 367 bhp & the Series II is 500 bhp with a mountain more torque.
The M137 suffered from bore ovality, head gasket issues, excessive oil consumption, bore scoring (due to block flex) and is regarded as the worst of Mercedes three V12 engines (M120 / M137 / M275)
They built the M275 by the strengthening the M137 block with thicker castings and more webbing and reduced the bore from 84mm to 82mm. It has proved to be a very reliable powerhouse!
These two are C215 Bi-Turbos:
https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202210241...
https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202209290...
https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202210241...
https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202209290...
Penguinracer said:
These two are C215 Bi-Turbos:
https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202210241...
https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202209290...
Interesting that prices haven't really changed from when I had one about 6 yrs ago. Such a magnificent thing and nearly 600 lbs/ft of torque. God I miss mine!https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202210241...
https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202209290...
I think people are scared of the maintenance costs - ABC struts are £1500 per corner, then you have valve blocks, pumps, spheres, the pulsation dampener, & various hoses.
As you'll know the engine itself is bullet-proof given regular maintenance.
Ok, coil packs at £1200 per side can be an issue & seem more likely to go after a remap or a change of the 24 spark plugs!
Like the C140 S600 coupes, you start to notice that there are less on the market as people put them away & eventually the asking prices start to edge up & before you know it the magazines are calling it a bona fide classic which you could have picked up for pennies a few years ago.
Give them a Kleemann remap & you'll never want for performance.
The 1000 Nm torque limit of the 5-speed transmission being the effective tuning limit for any sensible owner, otherwise they can be tuned to 1000 bhp & 1300+ Nm with larger turbos & an uprated fuel system.
As you'll know the engine itself is bullet-proof given regular maintenance.
Ok, coil packs at £1200 per side can be an issue & seem more likely to go after a remap or a change of the 24 spark plugs!
Like the C140 S600 coupes, you start to notice that there are less on the market as people put them away & eventually the asking prices start to edge up & before you know it the magazines are calling it a bona fide classic which you could have picked up for pennies a few years ago.
Give them a Kleemann remap & you'll never want for performance.
The 1000 Nm torque limit of the 5-speed transmission being the effective tuning limit for any sensible owner, otherwise they can be tuned to 1000 bhp & 1300+ Nm with larger turbos & an uprated fuel system.
Penguinracer said:
Beware - do not confuse the Series I C215 (1999 - 2002) with the M137 5.8 litre N/A engine with the Series II (2002 - 2006) with the M275 V12 Bi-turbo engine.
The Series I is 367 bhp & the Series II is 500 bhp with a mountain more torque.
The M137 suffered from bore ovality, head gasket issues, excessive oil consumption, bore scoring (due to block flex) and is regarded as the worst of Mercedes three V12 engines (M120 / M137 / M275)
They built the M275 by the strengthening the M137 block with thicker castings and more webbing and reduced the bore from 84mm to 82mm. It has proved to be a very reliable powerhouse!
Interesting about the trick materials used in the construction of the C215 - I wasn't aware of that.The Series I is 367 bhp & the Series II is 500 bhp with a mountain more torque.
The M137 suffered from bore ovality, head gasket issues, excessive oil consumption, bore scoring (due to block flex) and is regarded as the worst of Mercedes three V12 engines (M120 / M137 / M275)
They built the M275 by the strengthening the M137 block with thicker castings and more webbing and reduced the bore from 84mm to 82mm. It has proved to be a very reliable powerhouse!
On the M275 engine, my only anecdotal knowledge of them is that WorldBoss had a W220 and a W221 and, iirc, both had engine problems, though I think both were cheap and had high mileage. Stickleback123 had a W221 on which the 5G gearbox developed problems (think there's a readers' thread) and that had parts shared only with the SLR.
One comment for Mr Stewart - isn't it conventional wisdom that new parents quickly tire of lifting their child etc. in and out of the back seats of a two door? How about a CLS63?
Penguinracer, you are a veritable encyclopaedia of CL knowledge.
It seems that a great deal of effort went in to the C215 and it makes for fascinating reading. The two Biturbo cars linked look to have been very well cared for, and I note some small styling changes including rear lights, front bump, rear bumper? and the COMAND NTG2 in place of the NTG1, so presumably those cars had MOST rather than the earlier D2B fibre. Also the six piston front & four piston rear aluminium callipers that were fitted to my previous CLK63
All food for thought on the CL front. Thank you.
P.S. I could never become excited by VAG products other than the B5 RS4 - far too much platform sharing. It's a very cynical exercise yet people seem to fall for it. I do think that Lamborghini benefitted from their engineering experience as their earlier products were positively agricultural.
It seems that a great deal of effort went in to the C215 and it makes for fascinating reading. The two Biturbo cars linked look to have been very well cared for, and I note some small styling changes including rear lights, front bump, rear bumper? and the COMAND NTG2 in place of the NTG1, so presumably those cars had MOST rather than the earlier D2B fibre. Also the six piston front & four piston rear aluminium callipers that were fitted to my previous CLK63
All food for thought on the CL front. Thank you.
P.S. I could never become excited by VAG products other than the B5 RS4 - far too much platform sharing. It's a very cynical exercise yet people seem to fall for it. I do think that Lamborghini benefitted from their engineering experience as their earlier products were positively agricultural.
trevalvole said:
...One comment for Mr Stewart - isn't it conventional wisdom that new parents quickly tire of lifting their child etc. in and out of the back seats of a two door? How about a CLS63?
Yes, quite true. I did consider the first generation CLS AMG models and I have particular soft spot for the CLS55 IWC Edition. I found an example for sale with mileage that I'd be happy with https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202210160... (I would keep the original wheels in my garage and fit silver versions for my tenure). Ultimately, though, I can't get excited by a saloon so it must be a coupe. I watched a few YouTube videos to evaluate rear seat access and decided that it does look to be good enough:
I'll take responsibility for the lifting duties given that I wanted the coupe
The other attraction is the step up in comfort and features on offer in the S level models.I'm going for an early B class to make things easier for my wife - something like https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202210251... I'm under no illusion that build quality isn't any higher than something like a Fiesta or Astra, but given their current values they appear to represent very good value for money. I also think that they look smart. The little one isn't due until January so I still have time to find a nice car.
Mark,
I've followed your Ferrari & Fiesta threads, so I'm aware how meticulous you are about engineering detail.
I have Porsche 944 turbo nearing end of build - the original factory block but with a closed deck with Darton MID sleeves, dry-sumped, 2.7 litre, Mahle pistons, Carrillo rods, aftermarket intake, cam, exhaust, Garrett GTX3576R Gen II, Guard 50/80 diff, rose-jointed, KW's, 993 turbo brakes - totally reengineered to my spec to be a GT3 type road & track car - at Gantspeed Engineering up your way.
I started off just wanting a C216 CL600 having heard horror stories from the U.S. about the C215's ABC suspension & being aware that Mercedes darkest period was 1996 - 2006 when rust was a serious issue & build quality was at a low. All of which got me interested in the C140 which many would argue was the last Mercedes built to a standard & not a cost.
Martin Buckley described the C140 as Mercedes taking on Rolls-Royce & Bentley, a level of ambition they never pursued again. Remember that the C140 was supposed to be launched in 1989, but when the BMW E32 750iL came out in 1987 Mercedes immediately decided they would need a V12 to counter. So they spared no expense & couldn't afford to risk any failure & the result was the magnificent quad cam, 48 valve M120 6 litre (used in both original & AMG-developed forms by Zonda).
Net result, the launch of the W140 was pushed back to 1991 by which time a recession had set in (precipitated by the stock market crash of Monday 19th October 1987). The W140 received a luke warm reception - it was too big, too ugly, too thirsty & too late!
At a board meeting in 1993, after the 1 billion DM development costs of the W140 & the demotion of project head, Dr Wolfgang Peter to the truck division, it was resolved that never again would Daimler-Benz have such a dependency on any single product range. This is where the cross-over strategy of many model ranges was born. The W140 cost 25% more to buy than the equivalent W126 & sold in half the numbers (432,000 v 818,000).
Long story short, I had dismissed the C215 as being from Mercedes dark period until some posters on an MB forum who has owned both C215's & C216's opined that the C215 was the sportier car & the C216 the better sorted one with an improved ABC system. They also said that the C215 didn't suffer from the build quality issues of the period as it was a flagship product built on its own special production line.
I think the negative U.S. stories about the C215 suspension really stem from a misunderstanding that like all fluid carrying systems it requires regular inspection & maintenance - it's not a "set & forget" system like a conventional "dry" suspension system.
I've followed your Ferrari & Fiesta threads, so I'm aware how meticulous you are about engineering detail.
I have Porsche 944 turbo nearing end of build - the original factory block but with a closed deck with Darton MID sleeves, dry-sumped, 2.7 litre, Mahle pistons, Carrillo rods, aftermarket intake, cam, exhaust, Garrett GTX3576R Gen II, Guard 50/80 diff, rose-jointed, KW's, 993 turbo brakes - totally reengineered to my spec to be a GT3 type road & track car - at Gantspeed Engineering up your way.
I started off just wanting a C216 CL600 having heard horror stories from the U.S. about the C215's ABC suspension & being aware that Mercedes darkest period was 1996 - 2006 when rust was a serious issue & build quality was at a low. All of which got me interested in the C140 which many would argue was the last Mercedes built to a standard & not a cost.
Martin Buckley described the C140 as Mercedes taking on Rolls-Royce & Bentley, a level of ambition they never pursued again. Remember that the C140 was supposed to be launched in 1989, but when the BMW E32 750iL came out in 1987 Mercedes immediately decided they would need a V12 to counter. So they spared no expense & couldn't afford to risk any failure & the result was the magnificent quad cam, 48 valve M120 6 litre (used in both original & AMG-developed forms by Zonda).
Net result, the launch of the W140 was pushed back to 1991 by which time a recession had set in (precipitated by the stock market crash of Monday 19th October 1987). The W140 received a luke warm reception - it was too big, too ugly, too thirsty & too late!
At a board meeting in 1993, after the 1 billion DM development costs of the W140 & the demotion of project head, Dr Wolfgang Peter to the truck division, it was resolved that never again would Daimler-Benz have such a dependency on any single product range. This is where the cross-over strategy of many model ranges was born. The W140 cost 25% more to buy than the equivalent W126 & sold in half the numbers (432,000 v 818,000).
Long story short, I had dismissed the C215 as being from Mercedes dark period until some posters on an MB forum who has owned both C215's & C216's opined that the C215 was the sportier car & the C216 the better sorted one with an improved ABC system. They also said that the C215 didn't suffer from the build quality issues of the period as it was a flagship product built on its own special production line.
I think the negative U.S. stories about the C215 suspension really stem from a misunderstanding that like all fluid carrying systems it requires regular inspection & maintenance - it's not a "set & forget" system like a conventional "dry" suspension system.
Shamelessly pilfered from AussieBenzes on BenzWorld.org:
The W140 was the basis of the aborted deal between Rolls Royce and Mercedes Benz. Codenamed Phoenix, it was based on an S600L with air suspension and a new body. The prototype was shown to Rolls management who approved of the deal, after all RR and MB had similair standards and were a compliment to each other. The thing that killed it was BMW who were suppliers to RR with engines, transmissions and various electronics for both the then current Seraph and the upcomming Phantom. Because of the failure, the Maybach was born. And yes the W140 shares alot with it. The genuis behind the W140 (Dr Wolfgang Peter) was demoted to the truck division and later went to Mannesmann. From the outset the W140 was designed to be the best Mercedes ever built.
The W140 was the basis of the aborted deal between Rolls Royce and Mercedes Benz. Codenamed Phoenix, it was based on an S600L with air suspension and a new body. The prototype was shown to Rolls management who approved of the deal, after all RR and MB had similair standards and were a compliment to each other. The thing that killed it was BMW who were suppliers to RR with engines, transmissions and various electronics for both the then current Seraph and the upcomming Phantom. Because of the failure, the Maybach was born. And yes the W140 shares alot with it. The genuis behind the W140 (Dr Wolfgang Peter) was demoted to the truck division and later went to Mannesmann. From the outset the W140 was designed to be the best Mercedes ever built.
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